About Phrases

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Editor
Joined: 07.07.2014

I have noticed, that some added Russian phrases aren't idioms, but only common sentences, for example

Его нет. Он вышел. (He isn't there)
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%82-%D0%....
Жить на третьем этаже (to live on the 3rd floor)
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D0%B6%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D1%...
голова болит (I have a headache)
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0-%D0%B...
очень много (a lot of)
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C-%D0%BC%D0%B...
ненужный (unnecesary)
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%BD%D1%8B...

I think LT is not a dictionary, so it's not the place for them. What do you think?

Moderator Alex the Translator
Joined: 06.06.2015

I would remove these ones. Any objections?

Super Member
Joined: 22.04.2014

Видимо, они добавлены как перевод идиомы на другом языке (например, на познаньском диалекте польского или на украинском). Если уж удалять, то на всех языках сразу, а в каком-то из них может быть действительно фразеологизм.
Предлагаю перенести ненужное из раздела "аналог" в раздел "пояснение на другом языке", но не удалять совсем.

Moderator Alex the Translator
Joined: 06.06.2015

Спасибо за отзыв, Татьяна! Как-то так и сделаем.
Я думаю, что в большинстве случаев Вы правы: хотели сделать пояснение, но добавили его как аналог...

Moderator Alex the Translator
Joined: 06.06.2015

Done!

Авторство пояснений, по возможности, сохранял Wink smile
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/mieszka%C4%87-na-drugim-kiju

Super Member
Joined: 22.04.2014

Спасибо!

Moderator
Joined: 15.02.2013

I have noticed the same among the Spanish ones. I think a good cleaning is necessary.

Editor Absolute Amateur
Joined: 27.03.2015

And in Italian too. Unfortunately there are many people that don't understand that in the database you have to add idiomatic phrases and proverbs, no more. Actually I guess a good cleaning should be a good idea !

Moderator Alex the Translator
Joined: 06.06.2015

Many people don't understand what's the difference between the equivalent and the explanation. And that is much more sad...

Super Member
Joined: 22.04.2014

Сейчас раздел "фразы" хотя бы переведён на русский язык. А как в других интерфейсах, не знаю.

Moderator
Joined: 15.02.2013

I don't think they know what an "idiomatic phrase" is, either.

Moderator Alex the Translator
Joined: 06.06.2015
tanyas2882 wrote:

Сейчас раздел "фразы" хотя бы переведён на русский язык. А как в других интерфейсах, не знаю.

На самом деле переводят это всё такие же люди, как мы с Вами, Татьяна. К примеру украинский интерфейс доверили переводить мне. Главное - желание. И всё будет как надо, я так считаю... Wink smile

roster 31 wrote:

I don't think they know what an "idiomatic phrase" is, either.

I think it's easy to cope with this problem: just to add the explanations everywhere with the "live" examples, and notes, like:

DO NOT ADD AN ORDINARY PHRASE HERE! THIS FOR PUBLISHING AND EXPLAINING OF IDIOMS, PROVERBS, FIXED EXPRESSIONS etc. VIOLATORS WILL BE PUNISHED PHYSICALLY! :lol:

Editor
Joined: 07.07.2014
Moderator Alex the Translator
Joined: 06.06.2015

Well, in my opinion it's high time to organize the vote with the question like:

"Should we allow to use the "Phrases" section as a dictionary?"

Options:
1) Idioms, proverbs, fixed expressions are allowed only;
2) Any word or phrase is allowed to post in that section.

(Too much work to do over there...)

Editor /Languages Advocate
Joined: 18.10.2015

I think we should carry out a survey whether these sections are needed at all. How many users turn to them while translating if there are all kinds of dictionaries around? All the stuff is keyed in at random. This calls for a referendum "To Be or Not to Be?" - that is the question. Teeth smile

Moderator Alex the Translator
Joined: 06.06.2015

In my opinion these sections ARE needed. If we think like "they aren't needed, because there're lot of dictionaries around", then we can say that the whole this resource is not needed (if there are all kinds of translation sites around).

Editor /Languages Advocate
Joined: 18.10.2015

Alex, I just suggest asking people. I'm not in the habit of answering for them.

Moderator Alex the Translator
Joined: 06.06.2015

Well, I have answered. I am a part of the "people", am I? Regular smile
(I've edited my comment to show that I was speaking from myself Wink smile )

Editor - Sculptor of Language
Joined: 11.06.2015

I have never used this section in order to find an explanation for an idiom or proverb. As Nadia said, there are plenty of sources to be found in the www.
So, if it was abolished, I wouldn't miss it.

On the other hand, looks like there are many contributors, and you never know how many people might use it to get information. And if it's only for the joy the contributers might feel, when they can contribute, so there's a reason to live for this section.

But to avoid from going to the stars with the range of things, that can be entered here, maybe it would be nice to restrict contributions to idioms that are actually used in lyrics. So, every contributor should give a link to the song or poem, where that particular idiom is used. Contributions without a link could be deleted by moderators.

Moderator Alex the Translator
Joined: 06.06.2015

That's what I'm talking about. So many people like to share their knowledge of proverbs and idioms, and sometimes it's interesting for me to read them. I don't think I am the only one here, who read them (for educational purposes). Also I like Hansi's idea about the links to sourse of the phrase (actually it can be a mandatory field). Moreover, it would be fine to have an automatic reference to the explanation of the phrase just in the text of the song or translation (when it is present in the text, like in Wikipedia).

Editor /Languages Advocate
Joined: 18.10.2015

I said Vox populi vox dei. Together we'll be able to turn these sections into something workable. Good idea, Hensi and Alex!

Super Member
Joined: 22.04.2014

То есть предлагается убрать фразы, которых нет в уже переведённых песнях? А как же использование раздела для своих собственных переводов, на будущее? Как тогда узнать о чём-то, что ещё не использовано?

Editor
Joined: 07.07.2014
tanyas2882 wrote:

То есть предлагается убрать фразы, которых нет в уже переведённых песнях? А как же использование раздела для своих собственных переводов, на будущее? Как тогда узнать о чём-то, что ещё не использовано?

Как я поняла, поступило предположение на будущее добавлять фразы со ссылкой на пример употребления (будь то песня/стихотворение здесь или где-то в стороннем месте)

Editor - Sculptor of Language
Joined: 11.06.2015

Exactly.
It would be useful, if the explained idioms refer to lyrics.
Then it can become an aid for translators, since many idioms are repeatedly used in lyrics.

Editor Absolute Amateur
Joined: 27.03.2015

I think that many people add useless phrases only to get a label.
So, if we want to avoid to get our database full of nonsenses, could be a good idea abolishing the label for the ones who add more phrases.
And maybe, all the labels...

Editor /Languages Advocate
Joined: 18.10.2015

I think users should submit idioms, set phrases they have come across in their own translations with a link where other users may see the expressions in the text and understand the meaning better.

Super Member
Joined: 22.04.2014

Если не будет фраз, ещё не использованных в переводах, и нельзя будет запросить их толкование, тогда люди просто пойдут на другие сайты в их поисках, и не факт, что где-то им помогут.

Editor /Languages Advocate
Joined: 18.10.2015

А может ввести запрос на фразы как на перевод и транскрипцию?

Moderator Alex the Translator
Joined: 06.06.2015
sandring wrote:

А может ввести запрос на фразы как на перевод и транскрипцию?

Так есть же Regular smile Есть запрос на пояснение фразы (фразу Вы размещаете сами).

Editor
Joined: 07.07.2014

И запрос на пояснение существующей фразы тоже :-)

Moderator
Joined: 15.02.2013

The thing is that, the 'equivalent', in many instances, is just a translation. And, what is more, the translation may come from an original phrase that is just a common sentence.

Editor whimsical chatterbox
Joined: 14.09.2013

I think Hansi's and sandring ideas are pretty sound.

Using lyrics for context seems a good way to limit off-topic entries, and keep the emphasis on plain translation rather than translation resources.

Editor /Languages Advocate
Joined: 18.10.2015

Why don't we start a new thread asking users if they actually use phrases from this 'attic' while translating and if yes, then how. Now it looks like one-way points-in-mind traffic. :cry:

Senior Member
Joined: 19.03.2016

Out with it, is my opinion. We can ask natives if something is unclear
All Finnish idioms could be deleted.

Editor
Joined: 08.07.2016

I would suggest an improvement for this section:
When lyrics with an idiom is added, redirection to this idiom is automatically done. This is useful in 2 ways. First: it helps in understanding the idiom or phrase itself. and then: it suggests equivalents in other languages. which helps in translating a phrase into another phrase.
But, this REDIRECTION is done only if the phrase in the lyrics totally matches the idiom stored here in the bank, which doesn't happen in most cases. (For example: If the idiom contains a verb in present tense, and the phrase within the lyrics is in past tense "there is nothing new under the sun" , "there WAS nothing new under the sun".
So, I suggest to allow the lyrics adder to denote or redirect the reader to this idiom automatically, instead of explaining the idiom in a footnote.

Editor whimsical chatterbox
Joined: 14.09.2013

Good idea! Still we would need a way to designate the idiom easily.
Maybe a variant of the [fn] tag, with the idiom (in its reference form) inside, for instance:

    The guy wants to have his cake and eat it too

would be tagged as

    The guy [idiom=have the cake and eat it]wants to have his cake and it eat too[/idiom]

I suppose whatever magic does the cross-referencing could be extended to include the contents of such tags without too much extra work.

Editor
Joined: 08.07.2016

Excuse me. Can anybody explain how a part of the song is being chosen AUTOMATICALLY and marked as an idiom?
For Example
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%8A%D8%AF-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%8...
This Arabic idiom is not mentioned in any of these lyrics written beneath.
While this Arabic idiom idiom
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A-%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%A...
is mentioned in this lyrics (It is even the title of the song itself)
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/mohamed-adawaya-%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A-%...
Thanks Regular smile

Editor Absolute Amateur
Joined: 27.03.2015

Hi. :-) I don't know whether an idiom could be chosen "automatically". I always have the possibility to choose the language of my texts .
As you have only one possibility, when you put into the database a multilingual text, you usually mark it as belonging to the "main" idiom, for instance, the idiom in which the most of the text is written, or the one on which you want that people point their attention, for its peculiarity, its rarity,and so on...
At least, it's my opinion
P.S. the links don't run :-(

Editor Absolute Amateur
Joined: 27.03.2015

As I couldn't open the links, maybe I'm "off topic"(we only talk about phrases? I'm speaking about lyrics... :-(
In this case, I apologize; for which concern phrases, I agree: there are some problem about...

lt
Administrator
Joined: 27.05.2008

There was a problem with matching Arabic idioms with lyrics, and it's been fixed.

Editor from the Land of Fire
Joined: 21.06.2013

Matching problem with Azerbaijani, too. For example, "qulaq asmaq" is an idiom, and when a song has "qulaq as" or "qulaq asıram", we cannot see that idiom mentioned. But they are all the same thing. Qulaq asmaq - to listen, qulaq as- listen, qulaq asırsan - you listen, qulaq asıram - I listen. (the endings change because of the pronouns)

lt
Administrator
Joined: 27.05.2008
petit élève wrote:

Good idea! Still we would need a way to designate the idiom easily.
Maybe a variant of the [fn] tag, with the idiom (in its reference form) inside, for instance:

    The guy wants to have his cake and eat it too

would be tagged as

    The guy [idiom=have the cake and eat it]wants to have his cake and it eat too[/idiom]

I suppose whatever magic does the cross-referencing could be extended to include the contents of such tags without too much extra work.

Late is better than never, this tag got implemented recently. Now one can use the tag idiom to manually mark idioms in the songs and translations. It works like @petit élève proposed, but name should be put in quotes, look for example at http://lyricstranslate.com/en/filter/tips

Editor from the Land of Fire
Joined: 21.06.2013

Thanks! This feature is great, especially for agglutinative languages!

Super Member
Joined: 22.04.2014

Great!!!
But why "especially"? Not for agglutinative languages only, for flective also.

Editor from the Land of Fire
Joined: 21.06.2013

It is great for each language!

Editor from the Land of Fire
Joined: 21.06.2013