Introducing a new language? -Serbian (Ijekavian)

50 posts / 0 new
Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016
Pending moderation

Hi there! I would like to discuss about potential introducing of a new language: Serbian (Ijekavian). As we know, Serbian language is a Southern Slavic language spoken by approx. 9 millions people. It has the official status in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and so-called 'Republic of Kosovo'. It is also recognized minority language in: Croatia, Hungary, Montenegro (it is a political decision because majority of Montenegrins speak Serbian), then Slovakia, Czech Republic, Macedonia and Romania. Its main writing script is Serbian Cyrillic. Standard Serbian dialect is 'ekavica' or 'Serbian (Ekavian)', reffered simply as 'Serbian' which is spoken in Serbia. But, in the Bosnian enthity of Republika Srpska, official dialect is 'ijekavica' or 'Serbian (Ijekavian)', which can be misunderstood as Bosnian language, but Bosnian language is written in Latin script, while Serbian (Ijekavian) uses Cyrillic. Serbian (Ijekavian) is also in very common use in Montenegro, beside the official language is Montenegrin, which is, in fact, an invented language.
As Serbian (Ijekavian), I would categorize lyrics written by artists of Serbian nationality born in Croatia, Montenegro and Republika Srpska, and also some "Serbian Patriotic Songs" lyrics.

Here you can find something more about this topic:

https://www.google.hr/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.quora.co...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian_grammar

Please note that all of these languages: Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, Montenegrin, Croatian (Chakavian), Croatian (Kajkavian) are reffered as "Serbo-Croatian language" which is exclusively a linguistical, not a political term.

I hope we will discuss this topic.

With kind regards from Montenegro,
Stefan

Guest

Hmm it's like wanting to create a separate entry for "UK English" and "US English"... what is the point?

We already have separate categories for Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin, etc.... which is already pointless in my opinion.. because I'd categorize all of these as 1... since the difference between these 4 is lesser than the difference between different varieties of English.

US English, UK English, Irish English, Australian English, Ghetto English, etc. - these varieties of English have more differences between each other than Serbian and Bosnian have, for example.

Translations between these languages are extremely pointless, because it's basically just copying and pasting the text... or, in some cases even transliterating to a different script, and that's it...

Check out the examples yourself - just find any translation which is made from one of these languages to another, and basically all you will find is a copy-pasted text.. with maybe changes in several letters and that's it...

I've said it countless times, and I'll keep repeating it. Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian and Montenegrin are ONE LANGUAGE - the only reason they're considered separate languages is the politics.

However, since they're already considered separate languages globally, they may remain like this. However, why would we divide our language to even more unnecessary categories?

My opinion is that it's pointless to make such a thing.

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Yes, I will write down all possible artists I found that have lyrics in this language:
- Maya Berovic
- Aleksandar Olujić
- Mile Kitić
- Boban Rajović
- Dado Polumenta
- Kemal Malovcic
- Serbian Patriotic Songs …
I'm sure this list is much longer Regular smile

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

For me, Serbian language is only Ekavian, so I see it necessary to add Serbian (Ijekavian) language. These singers are of Serbian nationality, so their language can't be Bosnian or Croatian. Their language is Serbian, but Ijekavian Regular smile

Guest

Serbian language is not only Ekavian, both Ekavian and Ijekavian are literary forms.

The point of this site is to translate lyrics. Do you really think that it's necessary to translate from Serbian (Ekavian) to Serbian (Ijekavian)? Why would these be separate categories when they are one language.

Guest

If Serbian is only ekavian, what was the language of Vuk Stefanović Karadžić?

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

I would not translate between them, but I would only categorize entries of the Serb singers born in Republika Srpska or Croatia as being 'Serbian (Ijekavian)', not as 'Bosnian' or 'Croatian'. I would translate from Serbian or Serbian (Ijekavian) into other languages, not between them.

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

I guess it was Serbian (Ijekavian).

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Taken from Wikipedia:

Srpski književni jezik ijekavskoga refleksa jata ostao je u Crnoj Gori, Bosni i Hercegovini, kao i među Srbima u Hrvatskoj.

This means that Serbian (Ijekavian) is spoken in Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia by ethnicly Serb speakers, while Serbian (Ekavian) is spoken in Serbia.

Baudolina
Joined: 03.03.2014

I'm joining in with my view. Serbo-Croatian is a term used by some linguists but those who can only read these languages and don't take the phonology and sociolinguistic criteria in consideration. If people acknowledge Hindi and Urdu as two different languages than they should also do so in the case of these two. the fact we can understand each other does not mean we speak the same language.
As a Croatian speaker, I know it is not a problem at all to determine wether some song is in Serbian or Croatian language, no matter where the artists come from. There are singers from Macedonia which have songs in Croatian or Serbian, also there are many songs marked as being in Croatian or Serbian, while it's other way round. Most of us don't fuss about it.
In my opinion, one should listen to the song and determine, which all of us are capable, is it in Croatian or Serbian. If you think something is Serbian although ijekavian - write Serbian. Jat is not the only difference between Serbian and Croatian, only the most distinctive one when štokavski dialect is in question.

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Mrs. M de Vega, may I ask you would you approve an introduction of Serbian (Ijekavian) language in order to give a chance to ethnicly Serb artists to write their lyrics as Serbian?

Guest

It's easy to use arguments like this towards people which don't know our language, but you can't fool us which are native speakers.

The reflection of yat varies. There are Croatians which speak with "e", with "je" or with "i"... same for Serbs and Bosniaks. I know Serbs which speak "ikavian", I know Serbs which speak "ijekavian", etc.

If you're talking about "infinitive" vs "da+present" - in entire North-West Serbia the infinitive form is used.

There are 0 differences between these 4. The only way to determine the language is by the religion of the singer. If it's some Dragutin, Milorad, Miladin - it's Serbian ; if it's some Stipe, Ante, etc. it's Croatian ; and if it's Muhamed, Ahmed, Samir, etc. it's Bosnian.

If you think you can determine the language of the song by the written variant, then please tell me, what is the language of this text:

"Noć i ti i ja, samo tuga zna da je ovo za nas zadnji akord, da je kraj.
San i ti i ja, dušo varljiva, suze govore sve, gotovo je..."

Tell me, please, what is the language of this text?

Baudolina
Joined: 03.03.2014

I don't see why it can't simply be under Serbian. Kajkavski is also ekavski and it is still Croatian, there are also some other idioms in Croatia with ekavski reflex but they are still Croatian. You can write what you want under the language - someone wrote one of Arsen Dedić's song under Serbian and even wrote ekavski although it is clearly that he sings it in ijekavski. So, do what you think needs be done, but I agree with Filip that another language is not necessary

Baudolina
Joined: 03.03.2014

The text is too short and I can't hear it, if I could, maybe I'd guess. I did not think only of da+pz - which is morphosyntatic level. I wrote phonological level is crucial, we do not pronounce phonemes in the same way.

Guest

Every region has different pronunciation of phonemes... That is the weakest possible argument.

One could write a 100 page text in which you still won't be able to determine whether the language is Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian or Montenegrin, although being a native speaker of one of these four.

Guest

So basically your argument is that although they are written the same, they should be considered separate languages because they have different accent? Since you said that you need to hear this text pronounced to be able to determine the language...

Baudolina
Joined: 03.03.2014

The situation is different if you only take the official form of the language in consideration. When it comes to dialects - sure, and it is a fact because of dialect continuum - there are no cleancut boundaries between languages. So, the very fact we live next to each other means there are many similarities. But, I already mentioned Hindi and Urdu - structurally the same languages but linguists do know about the speaker's identification criteria when naming a language. Language is not only a lingustic category - except on paper. You cannot separate language from the speaker. It is always culturally conditioned.

Baudolina
Joined: 03.03.2014

The position of a linguist when it comes to language difference, boundaries and so on, depends on whether you're a structuralist, Chomsky's follower or you're into cognitive and sociolinguistics... I think people have a right to say themselves which language they're using. And don't you agree it is a fact that we can recognize as Cro, Srb, BiH speakers - who uses which language?

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Okay. Let the moderators decide.

Guest

Here's the deal. Surely Kajkavian, Chakavian and Torlakian need separate categories, and they're recognizable - but Shtokavian is a single undividable entity.

It's not just that "our two languages have many similarities" - it's that we're speaking the same language. The mere fact that you can't differentiate them in written form proves this.

Hindi and Urdu situation is not the same as ours, since formal variants of these languages are easily distinguishable in all forms - but for our 4 languages there is no difference what "variant" of the speech is, they're still the same.

The "common" varieties of Hindi and Urdu are the same (let the accent aside), the same is the "everyday speech register" - which has many words of Farsi origin.

When the entire Hindi-Urdu dispute started, and literary Hindi was created, they tried to purify the language of Farsi words, replacing them with Sanskrt words, and created something which is called "Shuddh Hindi" - and that is formal Hindi.

However, at the same time, when literary Urdu was created, they done the same, and replaced many Sanskrt words with even more Farsi loanwords - "purified" it, and created formal Urdu.

So - you can recognize easily Formal Urdu - it uses "shukriya" while Formal Hindi uses "dhanyavaad" - Formal Urdu uses "muhabbat" and Formal Hindi uses "pyaar" - but on informal speech, you will hear Hindus using shukriya, etc.

"Informal" variants of both are absolutely equal, however in "formal" variants they are easily recognizable. (you'll recognize Urdu by Farsi words, and Hindi by Sanskrt words).

If we look at the situation of BCSM language (Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian-Montenegrin) - it doesn't matter which "register" of speech we're talking about - they are still the same, and you still won't be able to recognize what language it is just by observing the literary variant... which, as I said before, proves that they are essentially one language.

However, yeah... they're recognized as separate languages globally, so It's ok that they are considered as separate languages on this website too...

Baudolina
Joined: 03.03.2014

Sure, when this subject is in question - I think the current situation is quite alright, here, on this page.
I do not agree about Croatian and Serbian being the same, there is a cluster of characteristics which divides them, each level has differences - phonology, morphology, syntax, lexic... It is just the matter of who many differences you need to acknowledge something as a language. I think speakers matter so, even if there were no differences - like in Hindi and Urdu - it is important the speakers of those languages do not think it is the same language. People have a right to say which language they use.

Guest

My experience with speakers of these language is that whenever I spoke with a Bosniak or a Croat, we were simply calling what we speak "our language" - naš jezik...

Baudolina
Joined: 03.03.2014

Regular smile da, mogli smo i pisati cijelo vrijeme na našem jeziku Regular smile hahahahha....

Guest

O tome ti i pričam :lol:

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Да пишемо на ћирилици питање је да ли би Хрват разумео хехе Regular smile

Guest

Možemo mi pisati i na glagoljici i na arebici, pismo ne određuje ništa kad je jezik isti xD

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Па уствари и није исти… Ми пишемо ћирилицом а Хрвати латиницом. Имамо и велик број речи које се разликују. Потражите на Википедији Regular smile Глагољицу више нико не користи хахах

Baudolina
Joined: 03.03.2014

Ceterum censeo - nije isti. Regular smile Bez obzira na pisma... Ovisi samo gdje će tko odlučiti da bude granica između dva jezika, a stoga što je to tako delikatna tema - nitko ne zna koliko je danas na svijetu jezika Regular smile Glupi lingvisti. Na kraju samo znam da ja govorim hrvatski Regular smile

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

За свој матерински сматрам српски мада сам рођен у Хрватској. Такође говорим и хрватски веома течно. Regular smile
Btw. Obožavam latinski i poslovice Regular smile

Guest

Još jedan izuzetno slab argument - "imamo reči koje se razlikuju"... u americi se kaže "truck", u engleskoj "lorry", mi u vojvodini kažemo "fićok", u ostatku srbije kažu "čokanj", hrvati u različitim krajevima kažu "paradajz", "rajčica", "pomodor", itd.

Posedovanje regionalnih izraza je karakteristika svakog jezika, i nije argument koji se može iskoristiti u ovom slučaju... Regular smile

Baudolina
Joined: 03.03.2014

Eto! Ti si onda najbolji dokaz da ne ovisi o mjestu rođenja koji će jezik netko smatrati materinskim Regular smile

Guest

"mi pišemo ćirilicom a hrvati latinicom" - read my previous post, moremo pisati i japanskim pismom kad je i dalje jezik isti Teeth smile

Baudolina
Joined: 03.03.2014

I ja mislim da je leksik najslabija razina za razlikovanje, zato nisam ni pisala to.. Na kraju se sve svodi na to da nitko od nas neće reći da je njegov jezik srbohrvatski nego će reći ili jedan ili drugi. Ima sad novi smjer - perceptivna lingvistika, možda bi te zanimalo. Svi govornici znaju koji je njihov jezik, a lingvisti biraju po teorijama, to su kruške i jabuke, ta perceptivna sad možda i pretjeruje s ulogom govornika, ali opet - nije to crno i bijelo nikad s jezicima. To su sve nijanse, ali vidljive su. Svi jezici imaju sličnosti, inače ne bi bilo moguće prevoditi, a oni koji žive bliže, imaju više sličnosti, to je činjenica.

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Slažem se… Takođe imam drugove rođene u Austriji i Nemačkoj a materinski im je srpski Regular smile

Guest

Nije činjenica da oni koji žive bliže imaju više sličnosti, to u lingvistici uopšte nije tako. Najsličniji jezik Holandskom nije niti Francuski niti Nemački (kojima je okružen), već Afrikaans (Južnoafrički) - koji se govori na drugom kraju sveta.

Najsličniji jezici Mađarskom nisu niti Nemački, Rumunski, ni bilo koji od slovenskih jezika koji ga okružuju, već Hantijski i Mansijski koji se govore u centralnoj Rusiji.

Najsličniji "govor" onom koji se govori u Portugaliji nije onaj koji se govori u Španiji, već onaj koji se govori u Brazilu... na drugom kraju sveta.

Ako pogledaš kako porodice jezika funkcionišu i kakva je struktura jezika na globalnom planu, videćeš da "geografija" ne igra apsolutno nikakvu ulogu. Teeth smile

Guest

Ja koristim termin "srpskohrvatski" kada govorim sa strancima. Regular smile

Guest

Ne postoji apsolutno nijedna razlika između naša četiri "jezika", niti fonetska, niti morfološka, niti sintaksička, niti leksikološka...

Evo ti konkretan primer, imam prijatelje iz hrvatske koji su srbi, i tvrde da je jezik kojim govore srpski, pa ipak kažu "kruh", kažu "krenio" umesto "krenuo", itd.

Koriste infinitiv umesto da+pz, i pričaju ijekavicom, pa i akcenat im je isti kao i hrvati iz tog područja.. pa i pored svega toga pričaju "srpskim" jezikom, i patriote su...

Pa ondak, moj sugrađanin, Stipan, kaže "hleb", priča ekavicom, itd. pa je i dalje "hrvat" i priča "hrvatski"... drugi sugrađanin, Sergej, priča ikavicom pa srbin je, poreklom iz dalmacije... Kolega sa posla mog oca, iz mog rodnog mesta, zove se Edin Ahmedspahić pa priča potpuno isto kao ja, bez ikakve razlike, pa je i dalje bošnjak, i tako dalje...

Možemo se raspravljati danima Teeth smile

Guest

Don't seperate even more, please. It's a stupid thing that they are seperated like that officially in my opinion. You don't need to seperate it even more here.

I mean there are even other languages which could be seperated like Portuguese. There 2 main varieties officially: Brazilian Portuguese and Continental Portuguese (Portugal, Portuguese-speaking African countries, East Timor and Macau). In Brazil you already got a vast variety of dialects, a bit less in Portugal but also there. Then come the other countries where Portuguese is spoken. They all sound different but are the same language. I mean by your argument you could seperate them in at least 15 languages. Informal Brazilian portuguese has huge differences in grammar, syntax, phonology, lexic. Some proud Portuguese nationalists don't even count it as Portuguese anymore, they say it is Brazilian.

But it would be fair if you would seperate them in Portuguese and Portuguese (Coloquial Brazilian) so people don't have to click first to know which is which. I already translated some songs in both varieties and I had this problem.

And if you are in the mood of seperating language varieties you could also seperate the Albanian language at least in Standard, Ghegh and Tosk. If you feel like seperating even more you could seperate some varieties from the Tosk branch because of their differences and add Labërisht, Çam, Arvanitika, and Arbëresh. If it is still not enough, you could seperate the Tosk branch a bit more and do the same with the Ghegh branch. So you got every possible dialect seperated. But now seriously, seperating in Standard, Ghegh and Tosk is a good idea. Regular smile

Guest

After the disintegration of Yugoslavia, the respective language standards developed for political reasons in the successor states, which was emphasized by the consistent use of the independent names: Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian and Montenegrin. The status of the standard varieties of Serbo-Croatian as independent languages is linguistically untenable. Rather, it is a slightly different realization of a macro language and thus de facto the same language system.

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Slažem se u potpunosti. Ali za raspravom nema potrebe jer je tema nakraju ispala glupa Confused smile

Moderator of the Balkans :)
Joined: 07.12.2012

Hey everyone, thanks for this discussion.

I'm not a speaker of neither of these (I just understand them), but as far as I know, we usually add new languages based on how different they are from their "original" version (for example, Modern English and Middle English or Spanish and Catalan) and how many songs are actually available in that languages.

Some countries (like Italy) have quite a lot of differences between their regional languages, I'm Italian speaker myself and I'm just unable to differentiate Neapolitan from Sicilian, for example - I just know it's not the standard Italian, and I can't understand them either. But just dividing further language that it's understandable by people who speak it seems unnecessary to me, and I believe the natives that took part in the discussion. I took a look at the artists you suggested, Stefan, and I don't really find any problems understanding their lyrics either. I do see your point, the thing is that your languages are so similar, and further splitting of them is not really sensible.

Now, every part of a country has its own accents, dialects, influence, the same goes for people that live in a neighbour country. If we follow that logic, I'd say that there are some Bulgarian dialects that I don't understand, or I know, but they're so different - but the thing is that there are just a couple of Folk songs that are entirely in them; then what about the slang words that singers use and are region-specific? The other speakers usually understand them, or learn them around friends that come from that region. Having some different words doesn't make a language not understandable by the other speakers. I just think it's unnecessarily to add further categories, so I never suggested it.

Haha, on the side note, separating Albanian is completely useless to me, as probably there aren't 2 songs in the same regional dialect, given the fact how different, relatively new and not exactly unified its use is. And you have Kosovar, Macedonian, Greek, Montenegrin Albanian... Plus, I've seen just a few songs in the so-called "Standard" version so far, and it'll create lots of unnecessary re-classifying as most of the submitters of the lyrics don't speak one word, let alone distinguish it Teeth smile but that's another discussion

Hope that helps, let me know if you have any further questions or you want to hear another mod's opinion, although I'm not sure whether we have anyone who is a native speaker around.

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Hi Gloria!
I saw your comment and I'd like to tell that the main reason for spliting these languages would be ethnicity of the singers. Serbian (Ijekavian) is language almost completely the same as Bosnian, but Serbian (Ijekavian) speakers are ethnic Serbs while Bosnian speakers are ethnic Bosniaks.

Moderator Saro
Joined: 21.12.2011

I honestly don't think there is a need to add more to the Serbian language category. This website already has Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian, and Montenegrin (which are all the same language in my opinion) and I think it's enough. The reason why these languages have different names are for political reasons. These names are already confusing enough for people who don't speak the language, if we add more we might just confuse them even more.

If we were to do what you suggested we do, that would be like adding English (UK), English (American), English (Canadian), which is unecessary.

Guest

That's right, girl! Finally someone who agrees with me, and supports my opinion! Hehe... svaka čast, đevojko Teeth smile

Senior Member
Joined: 03.07.2016

Personally I agree with your idea to introduce it as a new language or dialect if you want here, because I find it always a great idea, if people can express themselves in their language and so translate their regional or traditional songs in a foreign language or translate a song in foreign language like English in this dialect/language (myself, I do that all the time by translating songs into Luxembourgish, even if only 600.000 people speak that dialect/language).

Senior Member
Joined: 03.07.2016

Personally I agree with your idea to introduce it as a new language or dialect if you want here, because I find it always a great idea, if people can express themselves in their language and so translate their regional or traditional songs in a foreign language or translate a song in foreign language like English in this dialect/language (myself, I do that all the time by translating songs into Luxembourgish, even if only 600.000 people speak that dialect/language).

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Thank you Gabriel Regular smile Hope the language will be introduced by the admins Wink smile

Guest

You guys seem to not understand how this website works, and what's the point of it.

There is no need for separating the language on so many unnecessary categories. For the outsiders: "jekavian" simply means that some words which have "e" in standard Serbian, are spelled with "je" - "vreme" is "vrijeme" (meaning "time") ; "mesto" is "mjesto" (meaning place) - etc.

The language is exactly the same, the grammar is exactly the same, everything is exactly the same, it's the same dialect, even the same subdialect for God's sake... only spelling of couple words is different (because of pronunciation) and you want to create a separate category for it?

Listen - two languages should be categorized separately ONLY and ONLY ONLY if someone is going to translate BETWEEN THEM. Otherwise they are all categorized as SERBIAN and you translate from SERBIAN to OTHER LANGUAGES.

Do you understand now?

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Yes, that certainly makes a point.

Moderator Saro
Joined: 21.12.2011

Yes, I agree with Filip on his last note too. If this website was dedicated to the languages from the country former Yugoslavia, then I can see why we would categorise these small differences. But, because this website is mainly for translating songs into different languages for people who do not understand, then these small differences won't really be an interest to these people.