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Just out of curiosity, and I think I know the answer to this already. But why aren't Norwegian Nynorsk and Norwegian Bokmål considered separate on here?

I've seen a few requests to Norwegian, where the user would specify if they need Nynorsk, so I've taken to doing the same thing.

But, wouldn't it just be easier to separate them?

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011

I think I replied to the same question here: http://lyricstranslate.com/en/forum/norwegian

Sciera wrote:

I have already suggested 3 years ago that different categories be added for Bokmål and Nynorsk, but it wasn't deemed necessary
[...]
However, I'm still in favor of splitting the Norwegian category into its two standard languages as they seem to be clearly separate idioms.

In other words, I think we need input from Norwegian natives, and if they deem it better to separate the categories the admins may do so.

Guest

I do agree that they should be separated, but I'm not a native Norwegian speaker so I can't provide the feedback. I understand. It would just be much easier.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011

The admins replied they can add the category if we have users providing content in Nynorsk (adding lyrics or translations). Do we already have content in Nynorsk? I would assume so, could you list some?

Member
Joined: 22.11.2016

Here's a nynorsk item I posted recently -

http://lyricstranslate.com/en/lars-klevstrand-vi-skal-ikkje-sova-lyrics....

I added a note at the bottom specifying that it was nynorsk, but having lived and worked in Norway for many years, I would most definitely vote AGAINST!!!! separating the two!!! I think it should be sufficient to simply add a searchable tag to texts which are specifically nynorsk.

Bokmål is spoken and written by probably 85% (or more!) of Norway's population (whereas approximately 85% of Norway's geographic area is nynorsk territory...?) But many who themselves consider bokmål to be their native spoken and written language-form (and look down their noses at nynorsk!!!) in fact speak a dialect whose pronunciation and vocabulary differ, in some cases, quite considerably, from standard bokmål! Including some of Norway's most famous singers! (At least, many of those from the previous generation - Alf Prøysen immediately comes to mind.)

And there are also many more different dialect variants of nynorsk! And the government is slowly but surely trying to meld the two languages ultimately into one common form, "samnorsk". (From the Norwegian word "sammen" (nynorsk "saman"), meaning "together"): There have been numerous acts of parliament(!) officially changing both the spelling, and the grammar: the gender of words; the past tense formation, etc!! (mainly of bokmål, to make it more like nynorsk -- and more like the oral forms in common use, even in the bokmål-speaking areas.)

If we start dividing Norwegian texts up into all their regional and dialect varieties - Sørlandsk; Trøndersk; Hedemarken; Oslo-østre (working class east Oslo); Oslo-vest (more refined Western Oslo); Bergensk; etc. etc. etc., where will it all end?

Most importantly, it would make looking for texts much more difficult, as we'd often have to look in two places (and frequently, they would often be mislabeled, or wrongly sorted!, as those who aren't fluent in the language, but want to post the lyrics (which they got off a CD cover, or found on the internet, etc.), in the hopes that someone can provide a translation, and only know that it's Norwegian, but don't themselves have a clue as to which variety it is, would then be at a much greater disadvantage, and the whole thing would cause much more confusion, and we would then need to employ several more full-time grammar-nazis just to correctly sort and separate the two varieties!!! (And Norwegians can be extremely partisan and ferocious when fighting over the two varieties of their language!)

So as, true, a non-native, but nevertheless, fully fluent speaker who has lived in Norway for many years, I most adamantly vote that we preserve the peace we’ve so far managed to enjoy and employ on this here-forum, and simply add a searchable tag for nynorsk entries. !!!!

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011

Thank you for your input.

We don't have any tag system at the moment, so this is not a possibility (at least not one in the near future).

I have suggested before that we group certain languages together to make it easier to search in all dialects of it at once. But it's not always easy to decide what to put into the same group.

Regarding the sub-dialects, we already have a category for the dialect Sognamål, and others can be added as long as we have enough content in them. We could also make a general category for all dialectal varieties instead.

Regarding language politics, that makes things more complicated. But normally languages are defined here by what the people actually use, not by what policies exist.

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ibn as-sabil wrote:

I added a note at the bottom specifying that it was nynorsk, but having lived and worked in Norway for many years, I would most definitely vote AGAINST!!!! separating the two!!! I think it should be sufficient to simply add a searchable tag to texts which are specifically nynorsk.

I respectfully disagree with you. I don't think separating Norwegian into all those smaller dialects is necessary, but definitely separating nynorsk. It may not be spoken by most of Norway, but there's definitely content in it. Maybe we could do what was done with Swedish, and just do Norwegian and Norwegian (dialects), get all the smaller dialects in one category, that way nynorsk doesn't get mixed in with bokmål.

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ibn as-sabil wrote:

And there are also many more different dialect variants of nynorsk! And the government is slowly but surely trying to meld the two languages ultimately into one common form, "samnorsk". (From the Norwegian word "sammen" (nynorsk "saman"), meaning "together"): There have been numerous acts of parliament(!) officially changing both the spelling, and the grammar: the gender of words; the past tense formation, etc!! (mainly of bokmål, to make it more like nynorsk -- and more like the oral forms in common use, even in the bokmål-speaking areas.)

If we start dividing Norwegian texts up into all their regional and dialect varieties - Sørlandsk; Trøndersk; Hedemarken; Oslo-østre (working class east Oslo); Oslo-vest (more refined Western Oslo); Bergensk; etc. etc. etc., where will it all end?

Most importantly, it would make looking for texts much more difficult, as we'd often have to look in two places (and frequently, they would often be mislabeled, or wrongly sorted!, as those who aren't fluent in the language, but want to post the lyrics (which they got off a CD cover, or found on the internet, etc.), in the hopes that someone can provide a translation, and only know that it's Norwegian, but don't themselves have a clue as to which variety it is, would then be at a much greater disadvantage, and the whole thing would cause much more confusion, and we would then need to employ several more full-time grammar-nazis just to correctly sort and separate the two varieties!!! (And Norwegians can be extremely partisan and ferocious when fighting over the two varieties of their language!)

Ok but there's Swedish and Swedish (dialects) categories and I've never seen someone, fluent or otherwise mix up the two categories with lyrics. Also nobody is fighting over what should be in Swedish or Swedish (dialects) because it's pretty straightforward. Also Arabic is split in a similar manner, and I've not seen people fight over that either. I assume splitting Norwegian would be the same as splitting up Swedish on here.

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016

Hi! I would like to comment this topic from my experience. I'm a native speaker of Serbian and Croatian language, which are linguistically very closely connected, even referred to one language: 'Serbo-Croatian'. Our languages used to be one since 1991, when a war between Serbia and Croatia broke out. Today, even Bosnian and Montenegrin are considered separate languages. Croatian language has two main dialects (Chakavian/čakavski and Kajkavian/kajkavski) which are also divided on this page. Serbian is also connected with the bigger, Serbian-Macedonian-Bulgarian mixture, which is called 'Torlakian dialect', also divided here. So if all of this languages are split, why Norwegian can't be? Maybe because it's just one nation? But if Croatian dialects (and also Estonian, as I have seen) are split, then I think Norwegian dialects also shall be.
With kind regards,
Stefan

Guest

I completely 100% agree with you. The relationship between nynorsk and bokmål is similar to that of Serbian and Croatian anyway. They are similar, but speakers of each consider them to be separate languages (for the most part). Nynorsk has its own idioms and I think its own grammar, like the difference between Serbian and Croatian.

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Joined: 18.09.2016

I don't know anything about Norwegian, but if you say that they have such differences, they certainly have to be divided as separate languages, mostly because translations between them two are possible. For example, it is possible to translate between Croatian and Serbian; so I think it would be possible to translate between two Norwegian dialects. Regular smile

Guest

Exactly. I think it would be useful for beginners to be able to put in requests between the two, so they can see the differences. That's why I put in requests from Croatian to Serbian even though I know there will hardly be differences :p

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Joined: 18.09.2016

Well, when I write Serbian, I always write it in Cyrillic script because it's proposed by Serbian Constitution and we've written only Cyrillic in the primary school. But yes, there are some differences, although around 80 % of the lyrics will remain untouched Regular smile

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Joined: 22.11.2016

I see some of my comments generated a bit of heat; (of course, my comments were also a bit heated.)

Besides now belonging to separate, independent countries, Serbian and Croatian have always generally been written in two completely different alphabets, Cyrillic and Latin; and the Serbs are strongly Eastern Orthodox, whereas the Croatians are strongly Roman Catholic, (and the Bosnians Muslim); and they have a history of at times violently hating and fighting each other (already during the Second World War, Tito’s Serbian partisans fighting the Nazis, and the Croatian Ustasha collaborating with the Nazis and murdering Serbs; and Bosnian Muslim troops who fought for the Nazis); not just since the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 90’s! There are some minor vocabulary differences, but I doubt the differences at this point -- in either pronunciation or vocabulary -- are nearly as great between Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian, as are the differences between British and American English! -- maybe we ought to also now start separate categories for those two languages as well?

(Just today I saw a "meme" where Queen Elizabeth smugly declaims: "There is no such thing as 'American English'. There is English, and there are mistakes.")

Norway, unlike Sweden, has no "rikssvenska" (“riksnorsk”) in either bokmal or nynorsk: There is no Oxford English, "Queen's English", or RP (Received Pronunciation) for Norwegian. Virtually EVERYBODY in Norway SPEAKS a local dialect. Nynorsk, and bokmål are the two official WRITTEN standards, to which various dialects conform, (or from which they diverge!), to varying degrees: In television and radio broadcasting, most closely conforming to the written standard, (with a more or less artificial nynorsk “written (or “reading” pronunciation” being used.)

Back in 1965 (long before the age of the internet or even of personal computers!) Einar Haugen produced what is probably still the best, most comprehensive Norwegian-English dictionary: He included all nynorsk and all bokmål entries and all dialect words alphabetically in the same corpus (many words are identical in both bokmål and nynorsk!); those words, however, which are only bokmål are preceded by a superscript plus sign; those which are only nynorsk, are preceded by a superscript asterisk; and those which are only dialect words, are preceded by the degree sign. For example, four variants for the Norwegian word for “not”:
+ikke; *ikkje; °itj; and °itte.

Of course, when we’re dealing with actual texts, then these would always be one or the other of the three variants... But I would still plead for keeping these all in a single corpus -- perhaps always listing them as: - Norwegian (bokmål); and - Norwegian (nynorsk); and - Norwegian (dialect), but keeping them in a single directory, and NOT breaking them up into separate language folders...?

For example, -- except for those periodicals which are specifically published by the fanatical adherents of the one language form or the other (there are namely special societies devoted to advancing and preserving both bokmål and nynorsk!), -- ordinary mass circulation Norwegian newspapers and magazines REGULARLY publish articles, and letters to the editor in BOTH language forms, side by side! ((I.e., NOT the SAME article being simultaneously published in parallel in BOTH forms, but both forms, EITHER bokmål OR nynorsk, being used interchangeably in the pages of said newspaper or magazine.)

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Joined: 22.11.2016
Agronak gro-Malog wrote:

Exactly. I think it would be useful for beginners to be able to put in requests between the two, so they can see the differences. That's why I put in requests from Croatian to Serbian even though I know there will hardly be differences :p

Is there at present no way of specifying any additional details as to which type of Norwegian one would like a translation into?

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Joined: 22.11.2016

Norwegian libraries or record stores or bookshops also aren't segregated into two different languages, even though individual writers usually choose either the one or the other; all Norwegians can easily read and understand both; I don't want to see the corpus of Norwegian lyrics unnecessarily split up, making it less readily accessible, and necessitating always searching in two different data bases, as the Norwegians themselves do not segregate the two language variants in this manner!

Member
Joined: 22.11.2016
Agronak gro-Malog wrote:

Just out of curiosity, and I think I know the answer to this already. But why aren't Norwegian Nynorsk and Norwegian Bokmål considered separate on here?

I've seen a few requests to Norwegian, where the user would specify if they need Nynorsk, so I've taken to doing the same thing.

But, wouldn't it just be easier to separate them?

--It seems that the answer to my question was "yes", as you specified in your opening entry, that it IS apparently possible to specify in one's requests, which variant of Norwegian one desires a translation into!

Super Member
Joined: 18.09.2016
ibn as-sabil wrote:

I see some of my comments generated a bit of heat; (of course, my comments were also a bit heated.)

Besides now belonging to separate, independent countries, Serbian and Croatian have always generally been written in two completely different alphabets, Cyrillic and Latin; and the Serbs are strongly Eastern Orthodox, whereas the Croatians are strongly Roman Catholic, (and the Bosnians Muslim); and they have a history of at times violently hating and fighting each other (already during the Second World War, Tito’s Serbian partisans fighting the Nazis, and the Croatian Ustasha collaborating with the Nazis and murdering Serbs; and Bosnian Muslim troops who fought for the Nazis); not just since the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 90’s! There are some minor vocabulary differences, but I doubt the differences at this point -- in either pronunciation or vocabulary -- are nearly as great between Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian, as are the differences between British and American English! -- maybe we ought to also now start separate categories for those two languages as well?

(Just today I saw a "meme" where Queen Elizabeth smugly declaims: "There is no such thing as 'American English'. There is English, and there are mistakes.")

Norway, unlike Sweden, has no "rikssvenska" (“riksnorsk”) in either bokmal or nynorsk: There is no Oxford English, "Queen's English", or RP (Received Pronunciation) for Norwegian. Virtually EVERYBODY in Norway SPEAKS a local dialect. Nynorsk, and bokmål are the two official WRITTEN standards, to which various dialects conform, (or from which they diverge!), to varying degrees: In television and radio broadcasting, most closely conforming to the written standard, (with a more or less artificial nynorsk “written (or “reading” pronunciation” being used.)

Back in 1965 (long before the age of the internet or even of personal computers!) Einar Haugen produced what is probably still the best, most comprehensive Norwegian-English dictionary: He included all nynorsk and all bokmål entries and all dialect words alphabetically in the same corpus (many words are identical in both bokmål and nynorsk!); those words, however, which are only bokmål are preceded by a superscript plus sign; those which are only nynorsk, are preceded by a superscript asterisk; and those which are only dialect words, are preceded by the degree sign. For example, four variants for the Norwegian word for “not”:
+ikke; *ikkje; °itj; and °itte.

Of course, when we’re dealing with actual texts, then these would always be one or the other of the three variants... But I would still plead for keeping these all in a single corpus -- perhaps always listing them as: - Norwegian (bokmål); and - Norwegian (nynorsk); and - Norwegian (dialect), but keeping them in a single directory, and NOT breaking them up into separate language folders...?

For example, -- except for those periodicals which are specifically published by the fanatical adherents of the one language form or the other (there are namely special societies devoted to advancing and preserving both bokmål and nynorsk!), -- ordinary mass circulation Norwegian newspapers and magazines REGULARLY publish articles, and letters to the editor in BOTH language forms, side by side! ((I.e., NOT the SAME article being simultaneously published in parallel in BOTH forms, but both forms, EITHER bokmål OR nynorsk, being used interchangeably in the pages of said newspaper or magazine.)

Well, Croatian and Serbian are much more differ than you think. But this is a topic about Norwegian so I wouldn't like to continue with South-Slavic languages and history. If you'd like to discuss this you can write me a Private Message or write under the topic Slavic languages Regular smile

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011
ibn as-sabil wrote:
Agronak gro-Malog wrote:

Exactly. I think it would be useful for beginners to be able to put in requests between the two, so they can see the differences. That's why I put in requests from Croatian to Serbian even though I know there will hardly be differences :p

Is there at present no way of specifying any additional details as to which type of Norwegian one would like a translation into?

One can leave a note in the "requester's comment" field, which is only visible as long as the request is open.

I understand your point regarding there being too many sub-dialects, and no real standard. It's the same for other languages, though.
For German, my native language, we have currently 6 additional categories for the different dialect groups (and there are dialects that fall inbetween some of these 6). Nevertheless, more than 99% of actual lyrics are written in standard German, or in a colloquial form of it - it's not that common for bands here to write in the dialect of their region.
Additionally, the dialects are not really mutually intelligible - I for example couldn't transcribe most Bavarian or Allemanic songs, and would also have difficulties with understanding Low German.
Are the sub-dialects you are talking about rather colloquial forms, or do they differ more?

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Joined: 22.11.2016
BalkanTranslate1 wrote:

Well, Croatian and Serbian are much more different than you think. But this is a topic about Norwegian so I wouldn't like to continue with South-Slavic languages and history. If you'd like to discuss this you can write me a Private Message or write under the topic Slavic languages Regular smile

Dear BalkanTranslate1!

I apologize if I've overstepped my remit, and spoken too confidently about matters of which I have insufficent personal knowledge! Those were the details which had previously been given to me both by native speakers of Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian, as recently as a year or so ago, as well as by the eminent Slavic philologist Alexander Issatschenko, back when I studied Slavic linguistics under his tutelage; and by my native-born Croatian professor Barisa Krekic, under whom I studied Balkan history... -- But that was many(!) years ago, and far away... so perhaps my recent informants were unreliable, and the situation has changed more radically since my studies, (and my professor's emigration!), and the break-up of Yugoslavia...?

Again, my apologies, and I probably will be PM'ing you, as it is a subject which I would now like to plumb more exactly!

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Joined: 18.09.2016

Yes, if you have any questions about Balkans (ex-Yugoslavia) politics and history, you can send me a PM. Your appology is accepted! Regular smile
Sincerely,
Stefan

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yeah and I understand that you can leave a comment about which dialect of Norwegian you want it translated into. I just kinda assumed that it would be easier for most people if they didn't have to do that.