| 1. | Popular Greek songs |
| 1. | Βαλ' Το Τέρμα (Val' To Terma) |
| 2. | Για κάποιο λόγο (Gia kápoio lógo) |
| 3. | Πουτάνα στην ψυχή (Poutána stin psychí) |
| 1. | πόνο με κέρασαν |
| 2. | στη μέση τα αφήσαμε |
georgiaz73
Lun, 02/11/2015 - 01:22
If you don't speak Greek how could transliterate a Greek song?? I don't understand. I think you should stick to the languages you do speak. This transliteration is all wrong.
Sciera
Mar, 03/11/2015 - 19:08
@georgiaz73: Tanz didn't say he doesn't speak Greek at all, just that he's not a native speaker.
I don't know modern Greek, only ancient Greek, so I can't say much about it, but I listened to the song, and the transliteration here reflects quite well what the words sung sound like - in my impression a tad better actually than your transliteration, georgiaz. You two seem to have different approaches to transliterations, and I personally value the one used here a bit more. It doesn't seem to be completely correct, though, for example there certainly should be an "s" at the end of "neyose".
@Tanz: You added this twice, so I've removed one entry.
Tanz
Dim, 08/11/2015 - 22:13
Thank you ever so much, Sciera! My method of transliteration is different because I speak a variety of languages which all have different sounds, some of which do not exist within the English alphabet thus I improvise and try my best to reflect the sounds I hear with our 26 letters! Thanks for removing one entry as I accidentally clicked the submission twice!! And I'm female, not a guy! :D Yes, thank you for pointing out my error- simple human error when I listened to the audio of An Ponas! Really really appreciate your feedback and AM so glad you value this transliterated version! :,)
georgiaz73
Lun, 09/11/2015 - 23:27
And something else....Languages do not exist of sounds!!! They are words with meaning! When someone asks for a transliteration they want to be able to say the word as it is spoken in the specific language. We do not transliterate "sounds" we transliterate "words"
Sciera
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 00:34
I have to disagree from a linguistic point of view.
Due to the fact that we all here know how to read and due to the fact that our writing tradition breaks sentences into specific parts called words, it does seem to us quite obvious that these words would be what language is made of. However, firstly one in many cases could also make even smaller words (e.g. writing "word s" instead of "words") while still letting the semantic or morphematic structure of the language get represented by these breaks. And secondly, and this is the important point here, there always is also a phonetic layer to language. The breaks which are in this phonetic layer quite often differ from the semantic or morphematic breaks. And these phonetic breaks are one aspect of what such a phonetic transliteration like the one done here tries to represent.
Actually, when learning a language, learning to intuitively analyze and mimic the phonetic layer of it is among the most difficult parts of the learning process: If you only learn how to read and write a language you will not be able to understand it very well by listening.
I for one, if I'd ask for a transliteration of a song, normally wouldn't only want to necessarily know how to pronounce the words separately, but also how to pronounce whole lines. Words that follow each other slightly influence each other in their pronunciation, but most orthographic systems don't reflect these sound changes (Sanskrit is the only language I know that really does), nor do most transliterations do so. For example, in "Μην ξεχνάς" the "ν" isn't pronounced whereas in "Την αγάπη" it is, at least that's what it sounds like in this song.
georgiaz73
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 00:45
Are you saying that someone who doesn't speak a language can properly transliterate a song just by listening to the "sounds" and the "words"??? It seems to me for some reason you are inclined to disagree with anything that I say, just to disagree. Give an honest answer to my question please!! And of course I mean languages that have a different alphabet than the latin alphabet. Like Greek, Chinese, Arabic. Could I listen to a chinese song and transliterate it just from what I hear?? And let's say that I did....would it be correct?? I don't think so!!
Sciera
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 00:53
Honestly, I don't disagree with you for the sake of disagreeing but because this is my opinion which so far seems reasonable to me.
But I don't think that one could phonetically transliterate a song of a language one doesn't speak at all. In that case one would have no idea how the words of the languages are normally pronounced and would mishear a lot of things. That also is why I would never rate the transliteration here or give an absolute judgement of it. I only said it's my impression that it reflects the phonetic structure of the song quite well, not that I'm sure it does.
If you want to give improvements on how it could represent its phonetic structure better, or if you want to say that it represents the phonetic structure so bad that it's not worth to be published here, then please do so.
However your arguments so far seemed to attack the fact that it's a phonetic transliteration, and not its actual quality.
georgiaz73
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 01:52
So then you agree with me?? Because the translator in question does not speak the language or read the alphabet and has admitted to doing the transliteration based on what she hears!!
In my very first comment, I said that if someone doesn't speak a language they should not tranliterate. That is the very first thing I said and also that the specific transliteration was "almost" all wrong. And you replied to me that your opinion was that it was a better transliteration than mine. I think that I was very clear.
You may not have rated the specific transliteration but you most certainly said that it was a good transliteration and even better than mine, I call that a judgement!!
I am not here to correct or teach someone a language. I couldn't even begin to correct all the mistakes these 2 transliterations have. That is why I gave some examples. I think if someone who is a native speaker in both languages comments and says that a translation or transliteration is wrong, while giving examples and an ample amount of proof, then this should be enough!! So let me be clear....I did not attack anyone!! I commented on a transliteration, stating the fact that it was wrong!! I think that's all I need to say.
I most definitely commented on the quality of the transliteration. If this person did not speak a word of Greek and her transliteration was correct, I would've thanked and probably rated her as well. All I care about is the end result. I think our translations and transliterations should be 100% correct, so everyone can enjoy and trust the end result. I have nothing to gain from LT. So I hope you now understand that my intention when commenting was the quality of the transliteration. Otherwise I would have absolutely no reason to comment!!
Sciera
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 10:03
The author wrote that she is learning the language. I'm quite sure that she knows the Greek alphabet as that is the first thing one normally learns.
And I didn't say that this transliteration is better than yours, but only that to me phonetic transliterations per se seem more helpful and that this one here seems more helpful to me because it is a phonetic transliteration and, from my foreign perspective, looks more closely to what I hear when I listen to the song.
The examples of mistakes you gave seem to be based on the fact that it's a phonetic transliteration and that you misunderstood the system used, not on them being actually wrong. They additionally also could be wrong, but you didn't write how you would phonetically transliterate them yourself.
georgiaz73
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 17:13
How can you say that I did not write how I would phonetically transliterate it myself when I have done a full transliteration of the song??
Don't be so sure she knows the Greek alphabet because I can tell you for a fact she has made mistakes with the letters. For example...the letter "β" in Greek is transliterated with the letter "v" in English. That is what is sounds like and she has transliterated it with the letter "b" So there is proof that she doesn't know the alphabet.
Sciera
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 18:13
What I meant is that your transliteration is not a phonetic one which would transcribe letters differently depending on which word they are in and which other sounds follow or precede them. For example you wrote "kerasan" even though it sounds like the "n" there is not pronounced at all.
I listened to that other song, and the word "βόλτα" which she transliterated as "bolta" to me sounds like it starts with a sound differing from the one in "βράδια" here in which the "β" actually was transliterated as a "v" by her. So to my ears it seems more correct to transliterate these two "β" with different letters.
georgiaz73
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 18:29
O.k. Sciera!!! Whatever you say!! I can tell that you have no intention to listening to what I really have to say!! My opinion is that you are not being objective. Also, just for your information.... "β" in the Greek language is always pronounced with a "v"!! It doesn't really matter if you or anyone else hears it like a "b" If it is transliterated with a "b" it is 100% wrong!! The word "βράδια" in english is "vradia" and the word "βόλτα" in English is "volta" Always!! Our "b" consists of two letters which are..."μπ" This is our "b"
The whole point of a transliteration is for someone to be able to sing the lyrics correctly!! I can tell you for a fact that the word "bolta" does not exist in the Greek language!! If you are o.k. with that, then so be it!! Happy trails!!!
Sciera
Mer, 11/11/2015 - 18:26
If you say so as a native speaker, then I'll accept that, even though those words in the song sound different to me.
But your reply at least shows that our different evaluation of the transliteration is not due to a misunderstanding anymore, so let's leave it at that :)
georgiaz73
Dim, 08/11/2015 - 22:46
As you can see to her reply in my above comment she admits that she does not speak Greek.
georgiaz73
Lun, 09/11/2015 - 01:12
Why don't you add to your profile your native language, the languages you are fluent in and the languages you are studying?? There are rules you must follow on this site. I also saw your other transliteration and I can tell you for a fact that the word "bolta" and many other words in that transliteration are also wrong. I have the right to tell you something is wrong when it is wrong!! Especially when I have proven that I fluently speak both languages. I suggest you go and read the rules of the site. And also, I don't understand why you're offended?? Aren't you trying to learn Greek? Don't you want people to point out your mistakes?? I would be more than glad to help you, if you should ask for my assistance. But please do not try to convince me or anyone else for that matter that you can transliterate a song that you do not speak or understand. I will leave it at that!! And goodnight to you also!!
georgiaz73
Mar, 03/11/2015 - 22:59
@Sciera: I don't understand how listening to the song you thought that this transliteration reflects the words. For the letter "t" in most of the song he used "th" which by no means ever is pronounced like the letter "t". "Th" either sounds like the word "thanks" or "then" but definitely never like the word "ten" Also he has made up his own words, for example...
"Και ολα εκείνα που ποτέ σου δεν ένιωσες" is eight words and in the transliteration it is five words..."Kyola ekina pupo dhesude neyose"
Also can you pronounce this word?? "dhesude" Because I can't!! The only reason I commented on this song is because I am a native speaker in both languages and I was not able to understand the transliteration. Thank you for your opinion about my transliteration though, since you seem to value this one better, I will refrain from doing transliterations from now on!!
Tanz
Dim, 08/11/2015 - 22:17
It's *she but you weren't to know! Anyway, this is my first ever transliteration I've attempted and I will try to match the words in English to those in Greek next time. Try not to come down on people like a ton of bricks. I understand you can't pronounce "dhesude" but others may be able to, like myself. The "dh" is prominent when translating other languages and my transliteration was not produced for the sole benefit of just Greek speakers. Thanks for your feedback; it's much appreciated! Also sorry that you weren't able to understand my one! :o I think it's because we speak different languages that our eventual outcome from a certain language (Greek, in this case) to English is so different to each other's!! :,D
georgiaz73
Dim, 08/11/2015 - 22:54
I'm sorry if you felt that I came down on you like a ton of brinks! This was not my intention! Are you saying that only I can not pronounce the word "dhesude" but everyone else can?? And for your knowledge, transliterations are not for the native speakers, they are for everyone else who don't speak the language in question. The native speakers of a language do not need a transliteration. I still stick to my opinion, that if you don't speak a language, you should not transliterate it!! I also can hear and understand many languages but that does not mean I can transliterate a song. I'm sure there will be a lot I will not understand quite correctly. You are more than welcome to do any kind of translations or transliterations you like but I also have the right to comment on something I feel is wrong.
Tanz
Dim, 08/11/2015 - 23:35
You say it's not your intention to come down on me like a ton of bricks but it seems as though you are doing it again. You are discriminating against those whose mother tongue is not Greek.
So what if it's not my mother tongue? I am learning the language so I shouldn't exclude myself from transliteration attempts. Sure, you will be better at more accurately expressing the Greek words but you can help refine my transliteration instead of criticising the whole thing. I find transliterating a useful way to learn Greek and absorb the language while benefiting others at the same time. Of course I will carry on transliterating or translating and I disagree with your commenting that what I am doing (transliterating overall) is wrong. Let's agree to disagree and calmly leave this please.
καλή νύχτα! Goodnight!! :D
Sciera
Mer, 04/11/2015 - 18:28
"th" in many transliteration systems is an aspirated "t" and sounds not unlike the one in "ten". I assumed that this is what is meant here, but I'm not sure whether that is actually meant.
Same with "dh" in "dhesude" which then would be a "d" with a bit more air breathed out than normally.
It would be better if there was an explanation beneath this transliteration, telling which letter means what.
The word borders in this transliteration reflect the phonetic words, not the morphematic words. That as well is due to this being a different transliteration system than the one used more commonly on this website.
This all is just my personal impression from an outside position without speaking the language. Your kind of transliteration also has its value as it follows mostly the same orthographic rules as the Greek language normally uses, thereby helping those who want to know which words are written there but don't know the Greek alphabet. But if someone wants to know how to sing this full text, for that purpose a transliteration like this one here which follows the pronunciation more closely seems more helpful. It also is not as easy to do which is why the one here probably contains mistakes which a native speaker could correct.
I think we should wait for Tanz to reply and explain.
Tanz
Dim, 08/11/2015 - 22:22
I've replied to you both but you explained what I did and how I transliterated ever so well, Sciera!!! I didn't consider writing an explanation for each letter and its pronunciation but that is a very good idea! Personally, I was trying to learn the song and you're totally right in saying that this type of transliteration (mine which is absolutely more phonetic) could benefit people more if that's what they're trying to do! And yes, phonetic transliteration is not super easy but a native speaker would definitely be able to correct any small (or big :o ) mistakes I've made.
Sciera
Dim, 08/11/2015 - 23:42
You are very welcome.
If you are a complete beginner of learning Greek then I'd say you should refrain from attempting transliterations, but if you have at least a basic understanding of how the language and especially its pronunciation works, then you of course can try and add your transliterations. I consider an explanation for each letter rather necessary, so please add such. That also will enable native speakers to help improve it.
And sorry for calling your a he. I normally write "s/he" if I don't know, but I thought your profile pic would look different if you hadn't chosen a gender in your profile. My mistake.
Tanz
Lun, 09/11/2015 - 00:13
Ahh, Sciera, I don't know how to explain it- I can pronounce words in Greek and understand the different sounds of the letters so I'm fine to transliterate but not to translate Greek as I do not know many meanings and that's what I'm working on! :) Thanks ever so much for your support. Whenever one learns a language, support from others is always so beneficial, especially those who know the target language so I do sincerely appreciate your help and advice! :D
Don't worry about the mix-up; I only made the profile on the day I submitted this transliteration and didn't upload a photo which might have helped!
infiity13
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 20:03
As a native Greek speaker I have to say that this transliteration is not an easy read and also has some inaccurancies. The exact pronunciation of the greek words is not reflected to the Transliteration. I assume that you did the transliteration by ear. In m opinion it is best to do the transliteration based on the written text, and follow the proper spacing.This will help you with understanding dictation, pronunciation and word order. Sometimes if you do transliterations by ear and especially to songs,it's not clear what they say,or it sounds kinda diffirent due to musicality or the singers articulation/clear voice.
I will leave some corrections :
Μην ξεχνάς = Min ksehnas
μη ρωτάς κανένα = mi rotas kanena
λιγάκι=ligaki
ζήσαμε =zisame
φτιάξαμε= ftiaxame
infiity13
Lun, 16/11/2015 - 16:20
I understand that it was your first transliteration and mistakes are to be expected!
Yet some parts should be corrected not only for the community's benefit but also for your own,since your learning Greek !
!If I may I will point out some advices that were given to you previously and I think they will be of benefit to you!!
As Georgia told you ,it would be good to fill in what languages you know/study/speak because it will make it easier for anyone who looks for a translator and it helps other people to give you advice on your translations based on the languages you speak.
Secondly and most importantly in order to do transliterations it would be best to do them based on the written part and not what you hear (I told you this on my above comment I think!).Knowing how one language works (in general), its alphabet and some basic grammatical structures are a prerequisite for doing transliterations. In my opinion you should take a look on the advice that Georgia gave you above on some pronunciation guidelines!
Along with your effort and studying ,I think soon your transliterations will get better! I wish you the best with studying Greek!! :)
Sciera
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 21:08
The inappropriate comment was left after my last reply.
And it happens quite rarely here that comments need to be deleted due to offensive words.
I've unpublished it now since "shit" clearly is a vulgar expression.
In which way do you think I was not objective enough? I emphasized that it's my own opinion which I wrote - my comments here I wrote from my perspective as a linguist, not as a mod. Since I don't speak Greek I wouldn't act as a mod in a case like this (i.e. by unpublishing the entry).
georgiaz73
Mar, 17/11/2015 - 03:49
@ancientmuse: I agree that a translation or a transliteration doesn't need to be 100% (eventhough I always strive for my translations to be 100%) correct but I also think it should be at least 90% correct, which this transliteration is not. The button "request proofreading" exists so people can comment on your mistakes, which I did!! So what is the problem? How can you find this transliteration acceptable as a native Greek speaker??
Can you tell me what word this is in Greek? "aftha" or this word "pook"? or this word "yaga"? or this word "pespu"? Are you serious??? I could go on and on!! I don't think you should be commenting on Sciera's objectivity when you also aren't objective!!
makis17
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 21:01
@ancientmuse δεν χρειάζεται να "υπαγορεύεις" στην moderator αν θα διαγράψει η όχι το σχόλιο. Είναι στην κρίση της αν θα το κάνει. Εντάξει...ήταν αρκετά παρορμητικό, αλλά υπάρχουν αρκετά "απρεπή" σχόλια που δεν έχουν διαγραφεί. Δεν χαρακτήρισε πρόσωπο αλλά "αντικείμενο".
Miley_Lovato
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 21:55
Look the point in all this is that Tanz did transliterate the song by hearing it although she doesn't speak Greek. This is obvious because instead of writing "Ftaime"or at least "Fteme"" se wrote "Phteme"" which is the way the letter "F"" sounds. Now, this isn't the proper way to write it since she's doing a transliteration of the original lyrics beacause in Greek the letter "F"does exist like it does in English so there's no point on writing it that way that Tanz did. Plus, when you try to transliterate a Greek song only by what you hear can lead do to big mistakes because we have so many words that sound the same but they're written cmplitely different in order to anoid any confusion. I agree with @georgiaz13, she's right.
georgiaz73
Mar, 10/11/2015 - 22:06
Thank you for your opinion Miley!!!
Not a native speaker of Greek. Native English speaker and I transliterated it to the best of my ability. Hope it helps you all! :)
Tanz