[CLOSED] Banned user (Achampnator)

[@Vera Jahnke]: Aaron has had a very long history. He was banned many times and that didn't make him change his ways. Regarding that we cannot simply allow him to come back as if nothing has happened. In fact I was surprised that he was able to keep silent for quite a long time, but I'm afraid one day he would repeat what he did earlier. The decision is up to the admins, but I'm against allowing him to come back. At least not now.

Brilliant!
chat ban > perma chat ban > ban > perma ban

Yes, and here is the problem, "to be or not to be" and nothing in the middle of it. Maybe that is the cause, why it doesn't work... If LT switch off his comment-function, if necessary, you and other people here would be protected. Maybe everything depends on people like you, if you would forgive him, we could try it out...?

It's been a while now, so I do forgive him, and you have some good ideas that seem right to me actually ;)

So lovely! 💗 And thank you for you understanding and goodwill! 👍

In my comment above by "chat ban" I'm meant to restrict such users from commenting, since this is where most of insults are thrown.
I don't use LT chat feature at all, and forgot that it exists, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

Instead of perma bans Mods/Admins can first try do deprive a troublesome user from:
1) their number of points. (similar to points of reputation on other websites).
2) their rank: hey, you're not so Super after all!
3) ability to comment, chat, DMessage or start new topics.
4) to vote, to receive votes, to receive Thanks and to be able to thank back
5) to add new content, to have friends, to start collections
6) to post translations as the most radical measure.

Some of this do sound silly, but there are plenty of measures to try before removing members with hundreds of translations under their belt.

Also, if I will be banned from LT, I probably will be very pissed off and for sure would like all my content to be removed.
Do you give such opportunity for banned users on their way out?
It's their intellectual property.

I just saw this thread. We shouldn't give Aaron any other chance. He was given several and never showed he would act differently. We all know about his private issues but that is no reason for us to turn blind eyes on him (or any other user) and let him come back.

In one point he even said he would make the lives of a Mod who unpublished content he added a 'personal hell' and accused me of deliberately banning him longer and longer when I did nothing in that sense (we Mods actually have no power to hold out 'temporary bans'. Ours are definitive ones.).

If he wants his translations removed, he just needs to send LT a message (he doesn't even have to have an account as he can do it here > https://lyricstranslate.com/en/contact).

Oh, and BTW, translations and other content added by banned users still are visible (published), people just not are able to reach any section of their profiles and/or contact them privately.

I don't think we should. Aaron unfortunately never showed us he would change - he actually got worse in his ways of treating people, even staff members.

We did that with Maria. She was given a new chance after having 5+ support accounts banned for the same reason and allowed to stay unless she broke the rules. Then, in a Greek translation, an Editor made a small mistake and she was quite rude to her, so she was banned. And same for Andrey/AN60SH. Aaron has, as I said, even made threats towards Mods, so I don't think he is reliable for that. What would make us think that he changed after all this time?

I've known Aaron to be a sweet guy most of the time, but he can occasionally throw apparently uncontrollable tantrums, going far beyond what can be considered tolerable.
I don't see which new rules could better handle that kind of unstable behaviour.

Since there is no automated tantrum detector around, users with such issues would be subjected to permanent limitations of their posting rights.
This would be akin to a virtual straightjacket. Most likely unpleasant, and potentially damaging for self-esteem.
Besides, what kind of posting restriction except a total block would prevent an insulting spree?

He did. Aaron created several accounts when his main one was blocked to send staff members threats via PM and/or comment (we have evidence of that) - to the point of calling me his enemy and an 'idiot' after I unpublished one GT he added in the chatroom. He never accepted we trying to tell him to behave well to others and enforce our rules.

We also have a rule for support accounts, only one per user is allowed. And honestly, we instantly noticed him as he just used his former username. We just weren't sure if it was just a spammer or a real user. I've been away from Mod in the last few days so I can't tell you exactly why they were banned again, but it surely has a reason.

I don't think he's instable, in my opinion he reacts very logically:
1) He can stay here and it is only said in dry words: "Please, guy, obey the rules." (= take it or leave it = too simple).
2) He can't cope with his negative emotions and can only see abstract words with no concrete substance.
3) He realises that there are no limits for a long, long while, so he thinks, it is alright to violate the rules.
4) Then – bang! – the death sentence! He becomes extremely angry and tries to come back again, because he doesn't want to "die"...but too late now!

So what kind of restriction except a total block? – It's easy: no comment-functions for different periods of time, first maybe only a week, then a month, then 3 month, half a year, a year, but not more. 1 year should be enough. We are not talking about a hacker or a killer.

And please: I can understand if someone here is angry due to a bad personal experience with Aaron and is therefore not able to forgive him at present, but I wish we can install a new system for alle users in question, not only for him. If we regard it this way we can avoid an emotional discussion here.

Not a single staff member has ever been rude towards Aaron, however he always replied to us with rudeness, even when we were enforcing our rules.

He has first been reported, per Mod logs, in Oct 2017, due to a GT warning - result: he offended LT (Admins) via PM. And was blocked. 3 months later he was again blocked because he:
- Accused a Mod of having grudges against him (she unpublished an obvious GT)
- Offended users who added a translation to a song minutes before he did
- Called a user and a Mod 'assholes' because he disagreed with them

Not to mention
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/forum/report-problem-ask-question/unfair-...
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/forum/report-problem-ask-question/problem...
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/forum/suggestions/new-blockmute-button
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/forum/report-page/unfair-unpublishing

Not to mention him adding:
- Instrumental lyrics
- Unsourced translations
- Poor sourced translations
- GT that were even republished by him minutes after being spotted

What do all of those threads imply? That we are evil and do stuff without a reason. No. From the start, Aaron always broke the rules and whenever he was reprimanded by authorities (even Editors, who don't actually have to deal with issues with users), he always flipped out and attacked them.

I believe most Mods know how he likes the website, *however* we can't pretend we have no rules and make room for him to come back. What makes anyone believe he will behave differently? I haven't been given any proof. Not even bringing his private issue to the public eye, but that actually doesn't mean anything here. There are users with even more severe disabilities and mental issues (myself included) and you don't see them pointing fingers at people. I've been called 'calm' here, would you believe that I'm hot headed in real life and as such tend to be aggressive? No, because I know LT is a different place from others, I have rules to which I obey, so if I feel harassed or bad I take issues for others (authorities) to talk about it, I don't offend others. Why do we have rules if people are given more chances?

The only way to identify a banned user is recognizing his behaviour.
As long as he doesn't cause any trouble he can very well create an inconspicuous account and be active for years without anyone even noticing.

He would just have to quit posting GT outputs, and put a stop to these random extravagant insulting sprees against anyone pointing out his mistranslations or trying to enforce the rules he routinely breaks.

Alma, please, no one had said that anyone here is evil!
I see the opposite: Jethro Paris for example (like a saint) has forgiven him. Wow!
And if anyone breaks the rule, so punish him – alright - but do not kill him (in a social way).
Last but not least, NO "MORE" CHANCES BUT AN IMPROVED SYSTEM of adequate measures. That's all I want. And believe me, I would give alle my stars and all my points to get Aaron back. (No joke!)

Good points, Pierre, but I can't imagine that Aaron is such a guy. And what you did with the mentioned children? Removed them from society? I am sure, you didn't. I know Aaron can be awful, and Juan gave us all the links, although we know very well that he was never an angel, but he is not evil either. Don't you think we can reach the "safe distance" with other and less extreme means? Are you absolutely sure that there is no other way? Have we really checked every other possibility?

Luckily I have not very much experience with internet, but I saw some places I would never want to go to...

LT is different and I am very happy about it. The social interaction is polite and friendly, and I want that to be maintained in future. This intention is, as far as I can see, also yours and Juans.

On the other hand I strongly support as much social integration as possible.

So I thought about the problem and hoped, we could find a better solution together.

If not, well, then we must wait, until any god will come at the end of time and save us all...

It was just a suggestion... and now I am in a genre-mix-movie between Titanic (with half-empty life boats) and D-Day. Wow! And although I understand very well what you are talking about – Aaron is not Frankenstein!

YouTube... so now you bring up the "big guns" 😉, but - they DO have this mute-button to disable the comment-function, so why not LT?? (and I have no doubt that they are very fair here, but, of course, can become even better).

No matter how they try to get rid of the trash, Youtube remains one huge garbage dump.

It takes years to build a working internet community and days to burn it to the ground.
By and large, I think LT moderation strikes a remarkable balance between tolerance and efficiency.
It does not appear to be broken, so I would rather not try to fix it.

A last word about Aaron. The very fact that he had some good sides and an often likeable attitude was actually part of the problem. A repulsive troll would have been kicked out far sooner, and good riddance. On the contrary, Aaron was allowed a lot of leeway, getting away with transgressions that got other users booted out straight away.

Much debate went on about giving him yet another one last chance. Though their personalities were very different, the same happened with Maria, by the way. This thread is only the last instalment of this running debate.

His attitude was wildly inconsistent from one person to the other. This in itself is a serious problem, leading many people to see him as a victim, which could not be further from the truth.
He was the sweetest guy with some, myself included, but when he had it in for someone he could be very aggressive indeed. And he kept publishing GT outputs and unsourced external translations, no matter how tactfully reminded of the rules.

If you allow me to indulge in a bit more armchair psychology, he seemed to have a genuine problem with autonomy, i.e. the capacity of abiding by the law without external constraints, which is basically how the law defines an adult (at least in France).

Again, Pierre, you make perfectly sensible remarks, inter dispersed with jokes, irony, sarcasm, even self deprecation, however at the core, you lost compassion, empathy, desire to help even just one guy. I cannot and would not condone the way he treated mods, but does he deserve a lifetime sentence of being banned?! It was ludicrous with Maria, who said plenty to me personally, but neither of them deserved a lifetime sentence of being banned.

Everyone is so vociferous about banning Marias and Aarons, yet condone or remain silent about praise of Stalins and Hitlers - it’s ludicrous.

If Aaron is reading all this, grow up! Put the past behind you! Don’t discount friendships you were offered to dwell on the past!
Ask for help - there are people who live for helping others. Keep translating and writing! Know that you can control your moods, your words, your happiness! Yes, happiness!

I would rather not debate my capacity for compassion here, but I say again I was very fond of him and only wish him the best.

Still I am quite convinced lingering here would not do him any good. It would also breed even more dissent among users due to his inconsistent behaviour with people and lead to more insulting spree, on top of all the problems caused by his incapacity to follow the rules.

I think he lacks the measure of autonomy needed to participate in this translation activity and the minimal self-control that allows users to coexist peacefully. This is heavy stuff. There is not a snowball's chance in hell he would acquire these capacities here.

Nothing you, me or any LT user can do about such issues. Believing otherwise is self-delusion, however well-meaning. Trying to save someone and failing is far worse than doing nothing. As far as Aaron is concerned, I am quite sure doing nothing is by far the best choice.

Андрей так и говорил, пускай всё моё добро удалят.