I readed everything with GT thankfully was the Russian Clear enough for good old GT to form understandable sentences and I'd say you contradict yourself on the one Hand you say Yes its a Language for LT lets add it and then on the other hand again you say nonono That don't belong here in my Opinion is that not logical
My mother was born and raised in Siberia (Kemerovo, Tomsk) She never heard about ' Siberian language'
- Я родом из Кемерова, могу совершенно ответственно заявить, что в Кемерово говорили на совершенно чистом русском языке, "беспримесном", никаким диалектом там "не пахло". Более чистый русский язык я слышал разве что от некоторых жительниц Питера...
А вот на Южном Урале, где я служил - там, да, - "были отдельные нюансы"...
Hello. I've noticed the huge diversity of languages presented on this site's list, however, it lacks one language I'm knowledgeable in. It's the Siberian language (сибирской говор, sibirskoj govor).
There is no Siberian language! There is not a single academic source that describes this so-called language. This "language" is as real as the blue creature on your avatar. Stop misleading people by passing your fiction as reality.
There's one where the phonetical differences between Russian and Siberian with Pomor are described, if the sources that I listed earlier aren't enough for you.
sandring wrote:
Ребята, ну нет никакого сибирского языка или диалекта. Не было, нет и не будет. (А уж тем более здесь, на LT) Прежде чем официально оформить даже диалект, необходимы годы лингвистических изысканий, сотни диссертаций, словари и.д. Но сначала задается главный вопрос: для скольких человек этот диалект является родным? Они должны родиться в семье, где хотя бы один из родителей является носителем этого языка. Скольким людям в детстве пели эти новоявленные песенки? Никому. Сколько человек говорит на этом языке каждый день? -0 Потому что сам господин Золоторев говорит на прекрасном русском языке. Это все безграмотные псевдопесни. Просто кое-кто старается официально закрепиться на LT, признав его язык, затем прийти в Википедию и сказать "Видите, нас признали" Умные какие! Короче, нет носителей сибирского языка и неоткуда им взяться. А как говорил товарищ Сталин "Нет человека, нет проблемы" Заканчивать надо эту бодягу. Пусть "сибирские" песни стоят под Other. Нам бы с реальными языками разобраться.
Most native Siberian speakers live in Siberian villages. The thing is it's a seriously endangered language, as the Russian government doesn't promote it in mass media and schools, and give it a regional status (like Catalan and Welsh). In addition, even Siberian old-timers' speech has been being influenced by Standard Russian for decades. And Zolotariov actually speaks Siberian when he meets another Siberian speaker, whether IRL or on the web — so do I. For instance: И Золотарьов тодель бает сибирским говором кода сречат дружново баятеля сибирсково, будь то в жысе али гимге-той — тоеже как я дык.
Guest wrote:
Да! Вот именно! Сколько можно уже! P.S. Дъ чё к чему с ним вошкамся (￣ヘ￣) ! Тяму нет дък, запурхатся сибирякам свуу "сибирскуу говорку" навеливать (36 млн, ага-ага (⊙_⊙))! Кто з нас ишо сибиряк-тъ, Золотарёв ыли мы! Achampnator, his language is not a really language of any part of Siberia. It's a personal conlang - of one person.
It's not really a conlang. Zolotariov didn't invent all the Siberian vocabulary, grammar, and phonetics from scratch — he's had many conversations with Siberian native speakers (Siberian old-timers), and throughout those conversations, he had a hand in reviving the Siberian language. Do you remember how, for example, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda revived Hebrew?
...Do you remember how, for example, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda revived Hebrew?
- Бен-Йеhуда не конструировал заново грамматику иврита, фонетику иврита - хоть иврит в течение 1800 лет и не был разговорным "среди широких народных масс", он был таким же языком для синагог, как средневековая латынь для католиков. И было множество людей, кто знал иврит на протяжении всех этих столетий, - те, кто читали на нём Тору в синагогах ежедневно, - эти знали его отлично, а те, кто молились на нём ежедневно дома - постольку-поскольку.
There is no Siberian language! There is not a single academic source that describes this so-called language. This "language" is as real as the blue creature on your avatar. Stop misleading people by passing your fiction as reality.
Oddly enough, if you replaced "Siberian" with "Scots" you would read just like the English Scots-deniers. But finding a qualified linguist who supports that statement about Scots is pretty close to impossible. And the official languages of Scotland that are taught in schools and used as the languages in which teaching is done are threefold; Gàidhlig n h-Alba, Scottish English (which covers the various Scottish dialects of English, which are of course all part of Standard English), and Scots (which is not a dialect of English). As your comment reads just like an English-speaking Scots-denier, your statement (like many of the other "there no such language as Siberian" comments made in this topic) suggests very strongly to me that there is a Siberian lnguage because in my experience it is usually only ardent deniers of the truth that take their comments to that extreme of crude uncivil rudeness and display a clear unwillingness to look at any evidence instead of just shouting as nastily as possible that their belief is the only possible truth.
Of course this site also lacks one of my languages; Scots. Currently we are using the category English(Scots) to cover both Scottish English and Scots. That works reasonably well, although it may be a bit of a pain for speakers of one of the two languages involved but not the other, as it doesn't allow there to be translations from Scots to Scottish English or vice versa - but I'm not sure that those of us who understand both languages would bother to do translations between them anyway, as now that Scots is taught in schools as well as English most people who want to understand the songs will understand both languages.
That's a rather odd assertion. I think it's not about the Russian language, it's whether or not LT should recognise the Siberian language.
Now that we have more that 3 songs in that lnguage, why are the Siberian-deniers continuing their rants? I thought there was a clear rule that could be enfoced.
Are the academic references provided really non-existent, ad the siberin-deniers claim? Obviously not - I tried following one much reference and there it was, but the deniers are stll saying "there are no academic references to a Siberian language". Clearly the deniers don't want to look at the evidence.
How can you be serious about these allegations from a person who doesn't know any difference between a language, a dialect, and a subdialect? Besides, his claims that the linked linguistic work shows the difference between "Siberian" and Standard Russian is a sheer lie. I've read it all. That's all about the reduction of unstressed vowels in the generally accepted Russian dialects - Northern, Central, and Southern. Firstly, a particular reduction of vowels doesn't make up a dialect or even a subdialect. Secondly, there's not a word about Siberia. Thirdly, if a person gives such a link they can't have sufficient linguistic qualifications even to understand that article. Do you think they are apt at singling out a language?
No wonder Russian speaking users are indignant. As you may learn from their comments many of them/their relatives are from Siberia originally. I was there in the summer. And none of us have ever heard people speak like on those videos. As a child, I went to a remote Siberian village to see my distant relatives. They spoke one of the purest forms of Russian I'd ever heard. Siberians are known for any absence of dialectal peculiarities you may hear in European Russia. Quite the opposite - Russian in Siberia is considered Standard Russian at its best. Even Moscovites speak a Moscow subdialect, you can tell them by their protruded "a" sound in unstressed positions.
Have you ever been to Siberia? - No. Have you ever met people from there? - I don't think so. Do you know Russian well enough to understand dialectal differences? No way. Then why are you trying to question the opinion of LT's native speakers on the basis of some allegations from a stranger to LT? We also can get together, make up some LT language, sing three songs in it (I may even dance :), make a video and what? LT language will be registered?
From what I see, Tom, your statements are of some other than a linguistic character. And I hope we mean nothing national or personal here, on this site. Only languages at their purest.
There's one where the phonetical differences between Russian and Siberian with Pomor are described, if the sources that I listed earlier aren't enough for you.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120206015223/http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/...
Бигнавигатор, а вы сами-то эту работу читали? Ну, я прочитала с начала до конца, по крайней мере я понимаю, о чем речь. Она о редукции гласных звуков в Северном, Центральном и Южном диалектах - так они и так признаны, с ними никто не спорит. Ни слова про Сибирь, ну ни слова. Зачем вы вводите народ в заблуждение, думаете некому прочитать и понять? А тут есть я, так что никакие лингвистические аферы на этом сайте не пройдут. Поищите себе места, где меня по-крайней мере нет. У меня мама родом из Сибири, бабушки, дедушки, тети, дяди, и многие в далеких деревнях как вы утверждаете. Так вот именно туда и надо посылать иностранцев для изучения чистейшего русского, без примесей московского аканья и волжского оканья. Тогда они смогут цитировать Пушкина всем на удивление.
There are songs on Klingon in LT. Let's not consider Klingon an artificial language on this basis.
People who live in Siberia all their lives tell you that there is no Siberian language, and you continue to believe charlatans.
Иностранные источники меня не интересуют. Представьте хоть один русскоязычный академический источник, где бы упоминался т.н. "сибирский язык" или перестаньте нести чушь о его, якобы, существовании.
Иностранные источники меня не интересуют. Представьте хоть один русскоязычный академический источник, где бы упоминался т.н. "сибирский язык" или перестаньте нести чушь о его, якобы, существовании.
Евгений, нельзя представить то чего нет. Здесь много сибиряков на сайте, включая меня, а мне читать про"сибирский"язык противно и смехотворно.
А врать-то зачем? Я же этот источник прочитала на английском, который он приводит, и в котором, якобы говорится о различиях в "сибирском" и "поморском" диалектах. Это же чистейшей воды ложь. Там сравнивается фонетика центрального (Курск), северного (Вологда) и южного (Дон) диалектов. Как у них по-разному звучит, гласная "о" в слове, скажем, "корова". Так эти диалекты официально признаны. Там и слова нет о том, что за Уралом. Нам эта ссылка и вранье зачем? Чтобы мы на веру это приняли? Так у нас Надя есть, которые такие тексты на завтрак читает. Мне такая литература как комиксы, мне лапшу на уши псевдолингвистическими терминами не повесишь. Я же все прочитаю и всем расскажу. Постоим за Сибирь-матушку.
Many years ago, Nadia, I was a scholar. And even learnt enough Russian to signal that I was trying to be polite when talking to a Russian - and that included enough about pronunciation to regard that Crosswhite paper (which I didn't see way back then, of course) as utterly valueless rubbish. However, someone sent me references to some other papers that weren't mentioned (I've no idea why not) in the thread and they were rather different, not incompetent gibberish as was that awful paper on vowel mutations - and I looked at them, recognised them as things that decent linguists had written, nd threw them away because I have the impression that the central government night be somewhat upsent by such papers (living in a totalitarian dictatorship must be sheer hell for academics).
The situation in that thread reminded me of the powerful attempt that the Edinburgh English brigade put up to try to deny the existence of the Scots language - the language and sheer nastiness from the "there no such language as Siberian" was so obviously purely emotional claptrap with no foundation in fact, just as we had about 60 years ago about Scots.
I find your statement "From what I see, Tom, your statements are of some other than a linguistic character" somewhat offensive. I can certainly say that the comments I was responding too were utterly disgraceful, and if you think that statements as bizarre as "There is no Siberian language! There is not a single academic source that describes this so-called language. This "language" is as real as the blue creature on your avatar. Stop misleading people by passing your fiction as reality." aren't a clear indication that someone is trying ardently to deny something that they know to be true you must be very young and innocent.
А я считаю, что "Другое" над этими "шедеврами" надо поменять на "Искусственный язык"
I readed everything with GT thankfully was the Russian Clear enough for good old GT to form understandable sentences and I'd say you contradict yourself on the one Hand you say Yes its a Language for LT lets add it and then on the other hand again you say nonono That don't belong here in my Opinion is that not logical
- Я родом из Кемерова, могу совершенно ответственно заявить, что в Кемерово говорили на совершенно чистом русском языке, "беспримесном", никаким диалектом там "не пахло". Более чистый русский язык я слышал разве что от некоторых жительниц Питера...
А вот на Южном Урале, где я служил - там, да, - "были отдельные нюансы"...
дикторы через телеэфир.
В самом Кемерове, впрочем, в силу определённых причин тоже бытует московский диалект русского языка.
There is no Siberian language! There is not a single academic source that describes this so-called language. This "language" is as real as the blue creature on your avatar. Stop misleading people by passing your fiction as reality.
There's one where the phonetical differences between Russian and Siberian with Pomor are described, if the sources that I listed earlier aren't enough for you.
Most native Siberian speakers live in Siberian villages. The thing is it's a seriously endangered language, as the Russian government doesn't promote it in mass media and schools, and give it a regional status (like Catalan and Welsh). In addition, even Siberian old-timers' speech has been being influenced by Standard Russian for decades. And Zolotariov actually speaks Siberian when he meets another Siberian speaker, whether IRL or on the web — so do I. For instance: И Золотарьов тодель бает сибирским говором кода сречат дружново баятеля сибирсково, будь то в жысе али гимге-той — тоеже как я дык.
It's not really a conlang. Zolotariov didn't invent all the Siberian vocabulary, grammar, and phonetics from scratch — he's had many conversations with Siberian native speakers (Siberian old-timers), and throughout those conversations, he had a hand in reviving the Siberian language. Do you remember how, for example, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda revived Hebrew?
- Бен-Йеhуда не конструировал заново грамматику иврита, фонетику иврита - хоть иврит в течение 1800 лет и не был разговорным "среди широких народных масс", он был таким же языком для синагог, как средневековая латынь для католиков. И было множество людей, кто знал иврит на протяжении всех этих столетий, - те, кто читали на нём Тору в синагогах ежедневно, - эти знали его отлично, а те, кто молились на нём ежедневно дома - постольку-поскольку.
Oddly enough, if you replaced "Siberian" with "Scots" you would read just like the English Scots-deniers. But finding a qualified linguist who supports that statement about Scots is pretty close to impossible. And the official languages of Scotland that are taught in schools and used as the languages in which teaching is done are threefold; Gàidhlig n h-Alba, Scottish English (which covers the various Scottish dialects of English, which are of course all part of Standard English), and Scots (which is not a dialect of English). As your comment reads just like an English-speaking Scots-denier, your statement (like many of the other "there no such language as Siberian" comments made in this topic) suggests very strongly to me that there is a Siberian lnguage because in my experience it is usually only ardent deniers of the truth that take their comments to that extreme of crude uncivil rudeness and display a clear unwillingness to look at any evidence instead of just shouting as nastily as possible that their belief is the only possible truth.
Of course this site also lacks one of my languages; Scots. Currently we are using the category English(Scots) to cover both Scottish English and Scots. That works reasonably well, although it may be a bit of a pain for speakers of one of the two languages involved but not the other, as it doesn't allow there to be translations from Scots to Scottish English or vice versa - but I'm not sure that those of us who understand both languages would bother to do translations between them anyway, as now that Scots is taught in schools as well as English most people who want to understand the songs will understand both languages.
That's a rather odd assertion. I think it's not about the Russian language, it's whether or not LT should recognise the Siberian language.
Now that we have more that 3 songs in that lnguage, why are the Siberian-deniers continuing their rants? I thought there was a clear rule that could be enfoced.
Are the academic references provided really non-existent, ad the siberin-deniers claim? Obviously not - I tried following one much reference and there it was, but the deniers are stll saying "there are no academic references to a Siberian language". Clearly the deniers don't want to look at the evidence.
Tom, you're a scholar, aren't you?
How can you be serious about these allegations from a person who doesn't know any difference between a language, a dialect, and a subdialect? Besides, his claims that the linked linguistic work shows the difference between "Siberian" and Standard Russian is a sheer lie. I've read it all. That's all about the reduction of unstressed vowels in the generally accepted Russian dialects - Northern, Central, and Southern. Firstly, a particular reduction of vowels doesn't make up a dialect or even a subdialect. Secondly, there's not a word about Siberia. Thirdly, if a person gives such a link they can't have sufficient linguistic qualifications even to understand that article. Do you think they are apt at singling out a language?
No wonder Russian speaking users are indignant. As you may learn from their comments many of them/their relatives are from Siberia originally. I was there in the summer. And none of us have ever heard people speak like on those videos. As a child, I went to a remote Siberian village to see my distant relatives. They spoke one of the purest forms of Russian I'd ever heard. Siberians are known for any absence of dialectal peculiarities you may hear in European Russia. Quite the opposite - Russian in Siberia is considered Standard Russian at its best. Even Moscovites speak a Moscow subdialect, you can tell them by their protruded "a" sound in unstressed positions.
Have you ever been to Siberia? - No. Have you ever met people from there? - I don't think so. Do you know Russian well enough to understand dialectal differences? No way. Then why are you trying to question the opinion of LT's native speakers on the basis of some allegations from a stranger to LT? We also can get together, make up some LT language, sing three songs in it (I may even dance :), make a video and what? LT language will be registered?
From what I see, Tom, your statements are of some other than a linguistic character. And I hope we mean nothing national or personal here, on this site. Only languages at their purest.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120206015223/http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/...
Бигнавигатор, а вы сами-то эту работу читали? Ну, я прочитала с начала до конца, по крайней мере я понимаю, о чем речь. Она о редукции гласных звуков в Северном, Центральном и Южном диалектах - так они и так признаны, с ними никто не спорит. Ни слова про Сибирь, ну ни слова. Зачем вы вводите народ в заблуждение, думаете некому прочитать и понять? А тут есть я, так что никакие лингвистические аферы на этом сайте не пройдут. Поищите себе места, где меня по-крайней мере нет. У меня мама родом из Сибири, бабушки, дедушки, тети, дяди, и многие в далеких деревнях как вы утверждаете. Так вот именно туда и надо посылать иностранцев для изучения чистейшего русского, без примесей московского аканья и волжского оканья. Тогда они смогут цитировать Пушкина всем на удивление.
Во глубине сибирских руд
Золотарёв сидит и плачет:
На Вики не нашёл удачи -
И здесь, похоже, обосрут...
There are songs on Klingon in LT. Let's not consider Klingon an artificial language on this basis.
People who live in Siberia all their lives tell you that there is no Siberian language, and you continue to believe charlatans.
Иностранные источники меня не интересуют. Представьте хоть один русскоязычный академический источник, где бы упоминался т.н. "сибирский язык" или перестаньте нести чушь о его, якобы, существовании.
Олжаса в пору звать
Евгений, нельзя представить то чего нет. Здесь много сибиряков на сайте, включая меня, а мне читать про"сибирский"язык противно и смехотворно.
А врать-то зачем? Я же этот источник прочитала на английском, который он приводит, и в котором, якобы говорится о различиях в "сибирском" и "поморском" диалектах. Это же чистейшей воды ложь. Там сравнивается фонетика центрального (Курск), северного (Вологда) и южного (Дон) диалектов. Как у них по-разному звучит, гласная "о" в слове, скажем, "корова". Так эти диалекты официально признаны. Там и слова нет о том, что за Уралом. Нам эта ссылка и вранье зачем? Чтобы мы на веру это приняли? Так у нас Надя есть, которые такие тексты на завтрак читает. Мне такая литература как комиксы, мне лапшу на уши псевдолингвистическими терминами не повесишь. Я же все прочитаю и всем расскажу. Постоим за Сибирь-матушку.
Ну же, ребята, это просто трата времени бигнавигатор просто хочет внимания ничего больше.
Умница, Аарон, какой прекрасный русский язык!
Спасибо
Many years ago, Nadia, I was a scholar. And even learnt enough Russian to signal that I was trying to be polite when talking to a Russian - and that included enough about pronunciation to regard that Crosswhite paper (which I didn't see way back then, of course) as utterly valueless rubbish. However, someone sent me references to some other papers that weren't mentioned (I've no idea why not) in the thread and they were rather different, not incompetent gibberish as was that awful paper on vowel mutations - and I looked at them, recognised them as things that decent linguists had written, nd threw them away because I have the impression that the central government night be somewhat upsent by such papers (living in a totalitarian dictatorship must be sheer hell for academics).
The situation in that thread reminded me of the powerful attempt that the Edinburgh English brigade put up to try to deny the existence of the Scots language - the language and sheer nastiness from the "there no such language as Siberian" was so obviously purely emotional claptrap with no foundation in fact, just as we had about 60 years ago about Scots.
I find your statement "From what I see, Tom, your statements are of some other than a linguistic character" somewhat offensive. I can certainly say that the comments I was responding too were utterly disgraceful, and if you think that statements as bizarre as "There is no Siberian language! There is not a single academic source that describes this so-called language. This "language" is as real as the blue creature on your avatar. Stop misleading people by passing your fiction as reality." aren't a clear indication that someone is trying ardently to deny something that they know to be true you must be very young and innocent.
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