Introducing a new language? -Serbian (Ijekavian)

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Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016
Pending moderation

Hi there! I would like to discuss about potential introducing of a new language: Serbian (Ijekavian). As we know, Serbian language is a Southern Slavic language spoken by approx. 9 millions people. It has the official status in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and so-called 'Republic of Kosovo'. It is also recognized minority language in: Croatia, Hungary, Montenegro (it is a political decision because majority of Montenegrins speak Serbian), then Slovakia, Czech Republic, Macedonia and Romania. Its main writing script is Serbian Cyrillic. Standard Serbian dialect is 'ekavica' or 'Serbian (Ekavian)', reffered simply as 'Serbian' which is spoken in Serbia. But, in the Bosnian enthity of Republika Srpska, official dialect is 'ijekavica' or 'Serbian (Ijekavian)', which can be misunderstood as Bosnian language, but Bosnian language is written in Latin script, while Serbian (Ijekavian) uses Cyrillic. Serbian (Ijekavian) is also in very common use in Montenegro, beside the official language is Montenegrin, which is, in fact, an invented language.
As Serbian (Ijekavian), I would categorize lyrics written by artists of Serbian nationality born in Croatia, Montenegro and Republika Srpska, and also some "Serbian Patriotic Songs" lyrics.

Here you can find something more about this topic:

https://www.google.hr/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.quora.co...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian_grammar

Please note that all of these languages: Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, Montenegrin, Croatian (Chakavian), Croatian (Kajkavian) are reffered as "Serbo-Croatian language" which is exclusively a linguistical, not a political term.

I hope we will discuss this topic.

With kind regards from Montenegro,
Stefan

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Yes, I will write down all possible artists I found that have lyrics in this language:
- Maya Berovic
- Aleksandar Olujić
- Mile Kitić
- Boban Rajović
- Dado Polumenta
- Kemal Malovcic
- Serbian Patriotic Songs …
I'm sure this list is much longer :)

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

For me, Serbian language is only Ekavian, so I see it necessary to add Serbian (Ijekavian) language. These singers are of Serbian nationality, so their language can't be Bosnian or Croatian. Their language is Serbian, but Ijekavian :)

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

I would not translate between them, but I would only categorize entries of the Serb singers born in Republika Srpska or Croatia as being 'Serbian (Ijekavian)', not as 'Bosnian' or 'Croatian'. I would translate from Serbian or Serbian (Ijekavian) into other languages, not between them.

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

I guess it was Serbian (Ijekavian).

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Taken from Wikipedia:

Srpski književni jezik ijekavskoga refleksa jata ostao je u Crnoj Gori, Bosni i Hercegovini, kao i među Srbima u Hrvatskoj.

This means that Serbian (Ijekavian) is spoken in Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia by ethnicly Serb speakers, while Serbian (Ekavian) is spoken in Serbia.

Συντονιστής
<a href="/el/translator/m-de-vega" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1201997">M de Vega <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.03.2014

I'm joining in with my view. Serbo-Croatian is a term used by some linguists but those who can only read these languages and don't take the phonology and sociolinguistic criteria in consideration. If people acknowledge Hindi and Urdu as two different languages than they should also do so in the case of these two. the fact we can understand each other does not mean we speak the same language.
As a Croatian speaker, I know it is not a problem at all to determine wether some song is in Serbian or Croatian language, no matter where the artists come from. There are singers from Macedonia which have songs in Croatian or Serbian, also there are many songs marked as being in Croatian or Serbian, while it's other way round. Most of us don't fuss about it.
In my opinion, one should listen to the song and determine, which all of us are capable, is it in Croatian or Serbian. If you think something is Serbian although ijekavian - write Serbian. Jat is not the only difference between Serbian and Croatian, only the most distinctive one when štokavski dialect is in question.

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Mrs. M de Vega, may I ask you would you approve an introduction of Serbian (Ijekavian) language in order to give a chance to ethnicly Serb artists to write their lyrics as Serbian?

Συντονιστής
<a href="/el/translator/m-de-vega" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1201997">M de Vega <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.03.2014

I don't see why it can't simply be under Serbian. Kajkavski is also ekavski and it is still Croatian, there are also some other idioms in Croatia with ekavski reflex but they are still Croatian. You can write what you want under the language - someone wrote one of Arsen Dedić's song under Serbian and even wrote ekavski although it is clearly that he sings it in ijekavski. So, do what you think needs be done, but I agree with Filip that another language is not necessary

Συντονιστής
<a href="/el/translator/m-de-vega" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1201997">M de Vega <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.03.2014

The text is too short and I can't hear it, if I could, maybe I'd guess. I did not think only of da+pz - which is morphosyntatic level. I wrote phonological level is crucial, we do not pronounce phonemes in the same way.

Συντονιστής
<a href="/el/translator/m-de-vega" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1201997">M de Vega <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.03.2014

The situation is different if you only take the official form of the language in consideration. When it comes to dialects - sure, and it is a fact because of dialect continuum - there are no cleancut boundaries between languages. So, the very fact we live next to each other means there are many similarities. But, I already mentioned Hindi and Urdu - structurally the same languages but linguists do know about the speaker's identification criteria when naming a language. Language is not only a lingustic category - except on paper. You cannot separate language from the speaker. It is always culturally conditioned.

Συντονιστής
<a href="/el/translator/m-de-vega" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1201997">M de Vega <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.03.2014

The position of a linguist when it comes to language difference, boundaries and so on, depends on whether you're a structuralist, Chomsky's follower or you're into cognitive and sociolinguistics... I think people have a right to say themselves which language they're using. And don't you agree it is a fact that we can recognize as Cro, Srb, BiH speakers - who uses which language?

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Okay. Let the moderators decide.

Συντονιστής
<a href="/el/translator/m-de-vega" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1201997">M de Vega <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.03.2014

Sure, when this subject is in question - I think the current situation is quite alright, here, on this page.
I do not agree about Croatian and Serbian being the same, there is a cluster of characteristics which divides them, each level has differences - phonology, morphology, syntax, lexic... It is just the matter of who many differences you need to acknowledge something as a language. I think speakers matter so, even if there were no differences - like in Hindi and Urdu - it is important the speakers of those languages do not think it is the same language. People have a right to say which language they use.

Συντονιστής
<a href="/el/translator/m-de-vega" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1201997">M de Vega <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.03.2014

:) da, mogli smo i pisati cijelo vrijeme na našem jeziku :) hahahahha....

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Да пишемо на ћирилици питање је да ли би Хрват разумео хехе :)

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Па уствари и није исти… Ми пишемо ћирилицом а Хрвати латиницом. Имамо и велик број речи које се разликују. Потражите на Википедији :) Глагољицу више нико не користи хахах

Συντονιστής
<a href="/el/translator/m-de-vega" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1201997">M de Vega <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.03.2014

Ceterum censeo - nije isti. :) Bez obzira na pisma... Ovisi samo gdje će tko odlučiti da bude granica između dva jezika, a stoga što je to tako delikatna tema - nitko ne zna koliko je danas na svijetu jezika :) Glupi lingvisti. Na kraju samo znam da ja govorim hrvatski :)

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

За свој матерински сматрам српски мада сам рођен у Хрватској. Такође говорим и хрватски веома течно. :)
Btw. Obožavam latinski i poslovice :)

Συντονιστής
<a href="/el/translator/m-de-vega" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1201997">M de Vega <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.03.2014

Eto! Ti si onda najbolji dokaz da ne ovisi o mjestu rođenja koji će jezik netko smatrati materinskim :)

Συντονιστής
<a href="/el/translator/m-de-vega" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1201997">M de Vega <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.03.2014

I ja mislim da je leksik najslabija razina za razlikovanje, zato nisam ni pisala to.. Na kraju se sve svodi na to da nitko od nas neće reći da je njegov jezik srbohrvatski nego će reći ili jedan ili drugi. Ima sad novi smjer - perceptivna lingvistika, možda bi te zanimalo. Svi govornici znaju koji je njihov jezik, a lingvisti biraju po teorijama, to su kruške i jabuke, ta perceptivna sad možda i pretjeruje s ulogom govornika, ali opet - nije to crno i bijelo nikad s jezicima. To su sve nijanse, ali vidljive su. Svi jezici imaju sličnosti, inače ne bi bilo moguće prevoditi, a oni koji žive bliže, imaju više sličnosti, to je činjenica.

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Slažem se… Takođe imam drugove rođene u Austriji i Nemačkoj a materinski im je srpski :)

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Slažem se u potpunosti. Ali za raspravom nema potrebe jer je tema nakraju ispala glupa :/

Αποσυρμένος Συντονιστής of the Balkans :)
<a href="/el/translator/cherrycrush" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1144880">CherryCrush </a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 07.12.2012

Hey everyone, thanks for this discussion.

I'm not a speaker of neither of these (I just understand them), but as far as I know, we usually add new languages based on how different they are from their "original" version (for example, Modern English and Middle English or Spanish and Catalan) and how many songs are actually available in that languages.

Some countries (like Italy) have quite a lot of differences between their regional languages, I'm Italian speaker myself and I'm just unable to differentiate Neapolitan from Sicilian, for example - I just know it's not the standard Italian, and I can't understand them either. But just dividing further language that it's understandable by people who speak it seems unnecessary to me, and I believe the natives that took part in the discussion. I took a look at the artists you suggested, Stefan, and I don't really find any problems understanding their lyrics either. I do see your point, the thing is that your languages are so similar, and further splitting of them is not really sensible.

Now, every part of a country has its own accents, dialects, influence, the same goes for people that live in a neighbour country. If we follow that logic, I'd say that there are some Bulgarian dialects that I don't understand, or I know, but they're so different - but the thing is that there are just a couple of Folk songs that are entirely in them; then what about the slang words that singers use and are region-specific? The other speakers usually understand them, or learn them around friends that come from that region. Having some different words doesn't make a language not understandable by the other speakers. I just think it's unnecessarily to add further categories, so I never suggested it.

Haha, on the side note, separating Albanian is completely useless to me, as probably there aren't 2 songs in the same regional dialect, given the fact how different, relatively new and not exactly unified its use is. And you have Kosovar, Macedonian, Greek, Montenegrin Albanian... Plus, I've seen just a few songs in the so-called "Standard" version so far, and it'll create lots of unnecessary re-classifying as most of the submitters of the lyrics don't speak one word, let alone distinguish it :D but that's another discussion

Hope that helps, let me know if you have any further questions or you want to hear another mod's opinion, although I'm not sure whether we have anyone who is a native speaker around.

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Hi Gloria!
I saw your comment and I'd like to tell that the main reason for spliting these languages would be ethnicity of the singers. Serbian (Ijekavian) is language almost completely the same as Bosnian, but Serbian (Ijekavian) speakers are ethnic Serbs while Bosnian speakers are ethnic Bosniaks.

Συντονιστής Saro
<a href="/el/translator/mabushii" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1100527">mabushii <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 21.12.2011

I honestly don't think there is a need to add more to the Serbian language category. This website already has Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian, and Montenegrin (which are all the same language in my opinion) and I think it's enough. The reason why these languages have different names are for political reasons. These names are already confusing enough for people who don't speak the language, if we add more we might just confuse them even more.

If we were to do what you suggested we do, that would be like adding English (UK), English (American), English (Canadian), which is unecessary.

Ανώτερο Μέλος
<a href="/el/translator/%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%BB-%D0%B1%D1%8A%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1298254">Габриел Български </a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.07.2016

Personally I agree with your idea to introduce it as a new language or dialect if you want here, because I find it always a great idea, if people can express themselves in their language and so translate their regional or traditional songs in a foreign language or translate a song in foreign language like English in this dialect/language (myself, I do that all the time by translating songs into Luxembourgish, even if only 600.000 people speak that dialect/language).

Ανώτερο Μέλος
<a href="/el/translator/%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%BB-%D0%B1%D1%8A%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1298254">Габриел Български </a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 03.07.2016

Personally I agree with your idea to introduce it as a new language or dialect if you want here, because I find it always a great idea, if people can express themselves in their language and so translate their regional or traditional songs in a foreign language or translate a song in foreign language like English in this dialect/language (myself, I do that all the time by translating songs into Luxembourgish, even if only 600.000 people speak that dialect/language).

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Thank you Gabriel :) Hope the language will be introduced by the admins ;)

Guru
<a href="/el/translator/balkantranslate1" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1307847">BalkanTranslate1 <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 18.09.2016

Yes, that certainly makes a point.

Συντονιστής Saro
<a href="/el/translator/mabushii" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1100527">mabushii <div class="moderator_icon" title="Moderator" ></div></a>
Ημ. Εγγραφής: 21.12.2011

Yes, I agree with Filip on his last note too. If this website was dedicated to the languages from the country former Yugoslavia, then I can see why we would categorise these small differences. But, because this website is mainly for translating songs into different languages for people who do not understand, then these small differences won't really be an interest to these people.