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Smokey Meydan on 2019-02-03
Radu Robert Smokey Meydan on 2023-03-03| 1. | Songs about girls |
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| 1. | Stossgebet |
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| 3. | Sanctus Dominus |
Jadis
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 16:00
Le français est trop incorrect, c'est apparemment juste une traduction mot à mot de l'anglais, sans aucun égard par exemple pour le genre des noms ou la construction des verbes. "Prenez garde des mensonges qui sont déjà allées / car il ya une vérité au derrière de la voile.", c'est juste du charabia.
Aldefina
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 16:48
I will unpublish this translation after you read this comment. The request will be opened again.
It would be good if beneath the translations (especially those that were requested by other users) of this user that don't make sense you made a small comment, like "This translation doesn't make sense". I will unpublish them too.
Thanks in advance.
Natur Provence
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 17:11
This one is nonsense too. Not only does it refer to a former state of the original (I suppose), but the result is no French at all, I mentioned it on the concerned page.
"Traduction" catastrophe: "On the salute, Maria" --> Ave Maria
Malheureusement, c'est déjà effacée.
Natur Provence
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 17:16
N'exagérez-pas en effacant des traductions mauvaises !
Don't exaggerate by unpublishing bad translations. One should vote and explain, not delete!
Jadis
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 17:20
I have nothing against voting, but being French and mastering French, I can tell you that all the translations I mentioned are just terrible (and probably many more, I haven't looked at all of them). I can't understand why somebody having no idea about French language tries to translate into French. I myself wouldn't venture to translate something into Korean.
jaimepapier
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 17:34
It would be better to offer corrections rather than just delete. That way, the translator can learn as well.
This isn't the translation of someone who knows no French or there would be a lot more unconjugated or incorrectly conjugated verbs, missing agreements and such. Not having is translated word-for-word. It might not be graceful, but if a French-speaker was looking at understand the original, this translation would help them at least somewhat.
Natur Provence
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 17:23
I understand, but it should not be one person who decides if an translation is worth nothing, and especially not without consulting the translator.
Aldefina
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 17:43
My French is very limited and that's why I base on the opinions of the native speakers. When a native speaker says that the translation doesn't make sense it has no place on LT, especially when it was requested by other users. We have more than enough trash on our site.
I agree, one should help the translator to improve, but I'm afraid that's not possible when the whole text doesn't make sense.
Natur Provence
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 17:45
My French is very limited and that's why I base on the opinions of the native speakers. When a native speaker
speaker or speakers?
jaimepapier
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 17:55
"I base my opinions on native speakers" would be the best.
jaimepapier
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 18:00
I'm not convinced that it makes no sense at all though. There are certainly some lines that have missed the meaning in the original or that lead to a considerable delay in comprehension, but my impression is that I can follow the meaning of the translation, even if it is very clumsy.
I will have to bow down to the judgement of native speakers myself, of course, but I am concerned that deletion is a harsh judgement that I feel someone worked quite hard on. Especially since so far there has been no specific feedback so say what exactly is incorrect and why.
I've prepared my own comment with some suggestions for improvement for the first stanza, just as a starting point. Of course, I am not a native speaker so my suggestions might not be totally reliable. Contrary to what I have said above, if they are bad enough suggestions to be misleading or unhelpful, I will gladly delete them!
jaimepapier
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 18:13
Part of the reason I'm hesitant to denounce the translation just on the word of a native speaker is that native speakers are naturally perfectionists about their own language and therefore react quite strongly to something that has a lot of errors (particularly in syntax and collocations), even if it is actually understandable.
On the other hand, if it really, really doesn't make any sense and cannot be understood (bar a few lines) without refering to the original, then perhaps it should be replaced with a new request for translation, for the sake of the original requester.
Natur Provence
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 18:18
That is very true, especially if the native speaker is himself a language artist.
On the other hand, there are french songs written in a very poor french.
jaimepapier
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 18:21
That's true! But it's a different type of "poor" French.
Incorrect language by a native speaker is a very different creature to incorrect language by a learner.
Preslynn
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 22:19
I don't think it's that they don't accept it. It's just a little...harsh? I mean, I get it in a way. In the Elvis translation, the translator didn't even make sure that he/she got the gender of nouns right (all it takes is a peek into the dictionary). But I think that generally, we should try to help each other improve whenever possible. If the translator refuses to accept criticism (or is long gone) that's another story.
I just started translating into French and I KNOW I'm far from perfect myself. Will my translations automatically be erased because one native speaker says so? I have seen a lot of bad translations that have been here for years and nobody bothers to erase them.
jaimepapier
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 18:16
As some other's have pointed out, there are quite a few issues with this translation. I'll just go through some of the most important bits in the first stanza as far as I can see. Disclaimer: I am not a native speaker, though I do live in France.
Prenez garde de la nuit.
Méfie-toi / Méfiez-vous de la nuit would fit better in this context.
lorsque la lumière soit perdue
Judging by some of your other translations, you've studied Spanish and I think this is influencing you here. When using lorsque or quand with a future event, the subsequent verb should take the future tense: lorsque la lumière sera perdue.
car il y a un fantôme qui est grandiosement réveillé.
I think in the original here, "phantom" is actually being used as an adjective to describe "lust". So it is the "lust" that is awake, not a phantom. Un désir-fantôme might work best. Word Reference also gave me imaginaire and fictif for phantom being used as an adjective, but I don't feel either work in this context.
N'hésitez pas, laissez-eux vous prendre pour un tour.
There's a few things off here. The more literal venez seems more apt. The pronoun eux is for after a preposition, so rather les. Prendre pour un tour is very word-for-word. There are a couple of options here. Either rouler, which has the sense of duping someone, but might seem strange in this context, or something more literal like conduire or emmener faire un tour.
Actually, doing a little research, I came across faire mener en bateau, which would give both original meanings from English, if Word Reference is correct. I'm a little hesistant to suggest this as I haven't heard it used before.
Dénoncez le Dieu
Why not le Seigneur? In any case, I wouldn't use an article with Dieu as a name for a single god.
permettez votre luxure aux fêtes à prévaloir ce nuit
Permettre is really more "allow" and tends to be used with people: permettre à qn de faire qch. Carnal means to do with flesh rather than anything to do with carnival. Nuit is feminine, but it would probably be ce soir because I'm imagining this is before going to bed.
My translation would be rather: laissez votre luxure charnelle l'emporter ce soir/cette nuit
This is just a start to give you an idea of where it's not going right. If I get time (and if others judge my comments as useful) I will add some more corrections.
Jadis
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 06:38
Sure, it should be "emmener faire un tour", but that's not the worse, the worse is "laissez-eux vous prendre pour un tour". No French speaker would ever ever say so, everybody knows that it should be "laissez-les vous emmener faire un tour" (just basic French), although I guess it would be better to use the 2nd pers.singular in the whole text, thus : "laisse-les t'emmener faire un tour". But it would be useless to discuss every sentence of this translation, life is too short !
jaimepapier
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 16:56
I agree that "laissez-les" would be basic French to a French speaker, but not at all to a French learner. It's the sort of mistake I would expect to see even at a B2 level.
I do think, however, that a French learner of this level should probably not be responding to requests, but rather translating short and suitable texts of their own choosing, while inviting comments to improve.
Preslynn
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 20:12
I didn't realise that it was a request. If it is, I agree, he shouldn't have written this translation as he admits that he is not fluent in French. For requests, you should really just translate into languages you are fluent or native in. I checked his profile and he does a LOT of requests. According to his profile, he only studied French, Latin and classical Greek, is fluent in English and native in Greek but he translated requests where the source language is Russian, Czech, Hebrew, German, Turkish, Spanish or Italian...none of which he even studied? Pretty advanced stuff, like Mikhail Lermontov poems, too. I don't want to accuse anyone, but that seems a little odd to me. Jadis and Aldefina were probably on to something here and we were being too nice.
Natur Provence
Mon, 20/05/2019 - 18:25
I think your comment is very helpful and penetrative
Preslynn
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 20:27
Since I said that we should try to help each other, I'm going to try to help. Keep in mind that I'm not a native nor do I live in France. I'm very much at an intermediate level and in all honestly, this is not a piece I would dare to attempt to translate.
Les démons arrivent à la nuit et apportent la fin. ---> To say "at night", you just say "la nuit". I can't judge whether arriver is a good choice here, though I'd probably say "Les démons viennent la nuit". I want to say arriver is fine but I lack the subtle knowledge of French to decide that.
Les démons s'animent et reçoivent des ordres. ---> reçoivent is not the right word here. "Take command" isn't the same as taking commands/orders from someone. It's actually the opposite. I BELIEVE that you say "prendre les commandes".
car il ya une vérité au derrière de la voile. --> Il y a une vérité derrière le voile. You can say au derrière, but that means...something else. Au is a contraction of à and le and here, derrière meaning behind is a preposition, and a preposition doesn't need its own prepositions and articles.
Ils te font participer à leurs rites de couverture. On prendra le blé entre vos cuisses --> I don't know why the whole translation skips back and forth between using the tu and the vous form when the subject doesn't seem to change in the original English? Pick one and stick with it. 'To make part of' doesn't mean "to make you participate". To make part of is "faire partie de".
l'âme pleine d'une fille méchante. --> âme pleine means "full soul" not "empty dawn". That would be "l'aube vide".
Allez-y et ressuscitez aux ciels --> The y in Allez-y refers to a place (aforementioned or omitted) but since the place is mentioned later in the same sentence, you wouldn't say it like that. I'd just use venir (venez, viens). There is no "ciels". You have le ciel and les cieux. I believe les cieux is more like "the heavens" and since it is singular here (sky), you'd just say ciel.
et dites un grand au revoir à toute l'innoncence---> Et dites adieu à toute l'innocence ??
Et quand votre sommeil est égaré pendant la nuit ---> The use of égaré doesn't seem quite right? To me, it makes it sound more like "If your sleep is LOST" rather than haunted. There is a direct translation for the word haunted, hanté(e).
ne faites pas la pensée de chercher pour une bougie.--> Why not use the verb for dare, oser? I never heard "ne faire pas la pensée de" before, only "ne faire pas penser à". Of course it could be a thing I just don't know about, but even if it is, I don't think it's right in this case. I'd use oser.
I hope that was helpful.
Jadis
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 06:26
I don't want to fight for that, I think it's just losing one's time. I tell you that (for example) "ne faites pas la pensée de chercher pour une bougie." is plain junk, if you don't believe me, ask whoever you want. I don't think that the translator tries to improve his French, otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned "My translations are mine up to a considerable extent. I accept improvements only if I consider that any translation of mine has been delivered inaccurate or completely wrong." (well, they are...). And I don't intend to mention the whole list of gross errors in all of his French translations (in another text, "Ave Maria", now erased, he translated "ventris tuae" by "de ton estomac", meaning that the Holy Virgin had eaten Jesus or something like that !). I just came upon his works by chance, but they do not interest me. I just feel somehow shocked when somebody tells me it's French, or it could be French after some minor improvements.
Preslynn
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 15:51
Oh, I believe you. I personally always found your critique helpful when directed at me, and in general when I came across your comments, such as on Phil's much debated Russian translations. I don't think anyone expects you to go through all of this person's translations. I'm sure you have other things to do. You pointing out that the translations aren't good is fine. He has now received critique and we shall see if he responds/accepts it. If not, yes then his work should be deleted so nobody else wastes their time trying to help someone who doesn't want to be helped and thinks he speaks a language he admits he isn't fluent in perfectly.
I didn't look at the footnote before and yes I find that a little...arrogant. Maybe it doesn't come across that way in their native Greek (if I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here). Had I looked at it before, I might have held off on commenting. Either way, he was given/is being given a chance to turn this around. It's up to him to humble up or not. I'm just for giving people a chance to do better. *One* chance, not unlimited ones.
jaimepapier
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 16:52
I also hadn't seen that footnote until after writing my comments. I agree, it's rather unnecessary and indeed contrary to the aims of a site that, by its very nature, is collaborative.
I completely agree that if there isn't a positive response to the critiques so far, the translations should be removed and the requests reopened.
Natur Provence
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 06:38
I fully agree to your respective critics and also to your judgement of 1 star. But like Preslynn I find not only to harsh to simply delete such work but it is very unfair without giving the concerned member the possibility to react, to defense and to improve. What he wrote in general should not prejudice him.
Aldefina
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 09:38
According to our rules one star means that the translation is terrible, just like a machine translation. It’s so bad that it shouldn’t be published on this site and also If you are not proficient enough in a language, do not post translations in that language; or, ask for help in the forums, and only post the translation when the people who are helping you consider it to be good enough.
What I consider a problem is not that a user tried to translate into the language he hasn't learned enough. We all begin at some time and mistakes are unavoidable, but there are two real problems with this translation:
1. One star means that the translation should be unpublished.
2. It was a request and those who request translations expect at least some minimal quality, so a beginner should stay away. What's more he didn't even ask for proofreading.
Natur Provence
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 09:47
Where are these rules, especially what mean rating? I do not find this on https://lyricstranslate.com/en/lt-site-rules
Aldefina
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 09:51
Natur Provence
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 10:14
Thanks. I suggest not to hide these important informations in the FAQ. If I have no question after having read the rules I will not study FAQ.
Aldefina
Tue, 21/05/2019 - 19:40
This happened, I guess, for historical reasons. At first there were simply site rules, later FAQ was added to explain in detail the rules. As they were modified many times they grew and grew and not to make the page with the rules too long, detailed rules were added to FAQ. I agree this can be misleading. Perhaps indeed now it would be better to rename "Site Rules" to "General Rules" and "FAQ" to "Detailed Rules and explanations", because some users may not be interested in looking at FAQ and they should.
Οι μεταφράσεις μου μέχρι ένα εφικτό σημείο είναι δικές μου. Δέχομαι βελτιώσεις μόνο αν θεωρώ ότι κάποια μετάφρασή μου έχει παράδοθεί ελλιπής ή εντελώς εσφαλμένη.
My translations are mine up to a considerable extent. I accept improvements only if I consider that any translation of mine has been delivered inaccurate or completely wrong.