היו זמנים (Hayu Zmanim) (Transliteration)

היו זמנים

יבוא היום ועוד תשב אל מול האח
וגם הגב יהיה כפוף כחטוטרת
ותזכר אז בימיך בפלמ"ח
ותספר על זאת אגב עשון מקטרת
ומסביב, ומסביב ישב הטף
ואשתך גם היא מפלגת בשנים
תזיל דמעה ותקנח את האף
ותאנח: היו זמנים, היו זמנים...
"היו זמנים,
אז במשלט ישבנו,
היו זמנים,
לחמנו ואהבנו..."
עכשו דבר אין להכיר -
על המשלט יושבת עיר,
אולי בזכות אותם זמנים...
ותספר אזי על כבושים וקרב
והקטן בין הילדים יעיר בלחש:
ובכן, זה סבא שהציל את המצב -
מסבא שכזה, באמת, באמת, יש נחת...
ואז תראה את זרועך החשופה
ובה צלקת שהגלידה משנים
ותחיר - את זאת הן סבתא אז רפאה,
נו, ומאז - היו זמנים, היו זמנים...
היו זמנים
Submitted by poshspice92poshspice92 on Sat, 03/04/2021 - 18:09
Submitter's comments:

This is NOT an original Noa Kirel song, just a cover. The original is done by Shoshana Damari.

Align paragraphs

Hayu Zmanim

yavo' hayom v'od teshev 'el mol ha'ach
vgam hagav yihye kafuf kachatoteret
vtizakher 'az byamekha bapalmach
utsaper 'al zot 'agav 'ishun miqteret
umisaviv, umisaviv yeshev hataf
v'ishtkha gam hi mufleget bashanim
tazil dim'a utqaneach 'et ha'af
vte'anach: hayu zmanim, hayu zmanim...
"hayu zmanim,
'az bamishlat yashavnu,
hayu zmanim,
lachamnu v'ahavnu..."
'achshav davar 'en lhakir -
'al hamishlat yoshevet 'ir,
'ulai bizkhut 'otam zmanim...
utsaper 'azi 'al kibushim uqrav
vhaqatan ben hayeladim ya'ir blachash:
uvkhen, ze saba' shehitsil 'et hamatsav -
misaba' shekaze, be'emet, be'emet, yesh nachat...
v'az tar'e 'et zro'akha hachasufa
uvah tsaleqet shehiglida mishanim
utchayekh - 'et zot hen savta' 'az rip'a,
nu, ume'az - hayu zmanim, hayu zmanim...
hayu zmanim...
Submitted by poshspice92poshspice92 on Sat, 03/04/2021 - 18:38
Dr_IgorDr_Igor    Sat, 03/04/2021 - 18:56

Hey poshspice92,
I had a discussion with another transliterator from Hebrew the other day and we agreed that neither "ח" nor "כ" should be transliterated as "ch"
for obvious reasons. It should probably be "kh" unless it's a "כ" sounding like "k".
I will also have a couple of suggestions for your previous translation...

Dr_IgorDr_Igor    Wed, 07/04/2021 - 12:13

Just a couple of days ago I was listening to a podcast of two extremely intelligent even brilliant Jewish Americans - a couple. ( actually, he is Jewish, but she is not). And one of the listeners used the comments to send them a nice message חג פסח שמח transliterated in English letters.
Embarrassingly neither of them recognized it, so they just read as is. It sounded very funny to those who understand. My main point is that
apparently all the "ח"'s were transliterated as "ch" so they read them as a normal English speaker would pronounce "ch". That made it
super funny.
[@OgingerO] ,[@david_kotler], [@AdelaideArt] , [@IsraelWu] , [@Moshe Kaye] - inviting all enthusiasts of Hebrew I know.

OgingerOOgingerO    Wed, 07/04/2021 - 21:47

The issue is, khanuka or khai is not natural looking. we don't write khalla either or khag sameakh.
It's the same way when you see Loch Ness Monster. You know to pronounce the "CHHH" People either are knowledgable enough or they aren't.

Dr_IgorDr_Igor    Wed, 07/04/2021 - 22:55

I think the "naturalness" of "ch" in "chanuka",etc is pure tradition and its origin is in Poilsh connection. Whoever does transliteration
here especially at a request should be aware that the vast majority of the world's population would pronounce "ch" differently from that tradition.
So the transliterator should either pointedly comment about the "special" pronunciation of "ch" or switch to "unnatural" but unambiguous "kh".
I am not sure what people who request transliterations do with them, but they sure want to pronounce them correctly.

poshspice92poshspice92    Sat, 10/04/2021 - 19:59

My reasoning for transliterating with "ch" and "kh" is mainly because of the fact that they're spelled with two different letters (regardless of the fact that in Modern Hebrew they're prononced the same). But, I do agree that the "ch" spelling in particular can be misleading to many, so I'll make sure to add a note in my future transliterations that "ch" is to be pronounced as in Bach or loch.

Moshe KayeMoshe Kaye    Tue, 06/04/2021 - 20:01

If i have too, and i try not too, i usually just write "h"... or "ch" like in Bach.

OgingerOOgingerO    Wed, 07/04/2021 - 21:46

H is just more confusing than any other option. I'd rather see j even than h.

IsraelWuIsraelWu    Thu, 08/04/2021 - 16:34

Well, then you would get this transliteration "Jolera jasna" for originally Polish"Cholera jasna", used by Poles at every step.
Do you think a Pole would recognize it. Seeing it I would probably stop swearing or swear thrice as much. Personally I think it should be transliterated something like "Kholera yasna"

IsraelWuIsraelWu    Tue, 06/04/2021 - 20:28

Well, this is probably why I don't like transliterations. I know they have to exist (for now) but to say "transliteration" is only half or less of the definition. You have to know for whom and who is doing the work. Transliteration of "ח" or "כ" as 'ch' would be perfectly normal for Polish speakers. This combination is a hard "H" , while "ה" is a soft "H" (like in holy). But you would transliterate "חרטום" as Khartoum for English speakers while for Polish speakers it's Chartum . Reading maps in various languages can teach you a bit about "correct" transliterations as the cartographers have very strict rules for transliterations (each for their own languages). I don't mean the difference between the names of various cities or rivers in different languages, like Italian Roma vs. English Rome vs. Polish Rzym - transliterations proper.
In Russian you have your hard "KH" but I think you pronounce the soft "H" as "G".
In short, how can you transliterate if you don't know for whom you are doing it or read a transliteration without knowing the rules applied.

Dr_IgorDr_Igor    Tue, 06/04/2021 - 20:38

>In Russian you have your hard "KH" but I think you pronounce the soft "H" as "G".
That's a "dialect" close to Ukrainian but the letter there is the analog of G - "Г" not of H - "Х"

Good point about Polish - it slipped my mind and overall - about "targeted" transliterations - makes a lot of sense.

IsraelWuIsraelWu    Tue, 06/04/2021 - 21:05

I know about G and the "Ukrainian connection" but they do "transliteration" automatically, the best/worst example that comes first to my mind is "Gitler". And is it a coincidence that 'Hero' and "Geroy" sound so similarly, perhaps Viking connection, do you know?

IsraelWuIsraelWu    Wed, 07/04/2021 - 08:40

I shouldn't be allowed near the keyboard after midnight. We have it in Polish as well (heros, heroizm) but I didn't remember. It's not a Viking connection, but simply from Greek - ήρωας. I am supposed to know it :-(

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