[SOLVED] [CLOSED] About using Emoji

17 posts / 0 new
Senior Member 田中
<a href="/en/translator/sionnach-macsionnaigh" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1496152">Sionnach MacSionnaigh</a>
Joined: 06.04.2021
Pending moderation

Dear everyone, I have been changed my submitted lyrics for irrational reasons by a moderator (@Icey).

https://lyricstranslate.com/ja/%F0%9F%A7%80%F0%9F%A7%80-sekai-o-chi%CC%8...
https://i.imgur.com/FNrNggq.jpeg

In this song's lyrics officially provided from the musicians, there are some emoji included. So I think it is wrong that the use of emoji is not allowed for this.
Not only that, but the readability of the lyrics has been significantly reduced by the removal of pictograms, which serve as spaces between the names of cheese!

https://lyricstranslate.com/ja/lt-site-rules
There are not any rule that says don't use emoji.
In the only point where refer to emoji, it say just "Content with only symbols, emojis, numbers, special characters or written in morse/binary code are not appropriate content and shouldn't be added", this means that it doesn't prohibit contents made from emoji "partly" but using them "only".
It would be inappropriate if the meanings of existing rules were extended for Japanese and Emoji and the cases using them partly.

If you want to make regulation for Japanese and emoji, please make rules for Japanese and emoji.
Please don't make up rules that aren't written down on your own.
In case the moderator has simply misunderstood the rules, scold the moderator if you please.

I plead for respecting the will of original artists.
I oppose to thoughtless destruction of integrity of lyrics.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Editor
<a href="/en/translator/fantasy" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1277894">Fantasy</a>
Joined: 16.02.2016

Currently lyrics on LT are text-based. Are emojis read out loud when the lyrics are sung?

Senior Member 田中
<a href="/en/translator/sionnach-macsionnaigh" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1496152">Sionnach MacSionnaigh</a>
Joined: 06.04.2021

I guess it's same as asking whether ".", ".", "-", "!", "?" and spaces are read out loud when the lyrics are sung.
In the song, emoji play the same role as exclamation marks and comma.

They haven't done any harms to the system of LT; it's just how to spell Japanese is more unrestricted than any other languages.
Japanese has a number of ways to spell the same word.
Authors are even allowed to decide their own reading of a kanji.
It is just an extended idea of that to exclamation marks, spaces and so on.

And please keep in mind that emoji is originated from Japanese.
They are not just illustrations drown in the text, but they are being text-based literal techniques since two dozen years ago.

Since we have the tacit approval from the copyright holders to reprint the lyrics, I cannot afford to ignore unauthorised alterations.
I just want our language culture and the right to preserve integrity to be respected.

Moderator poromboessara 👨🏻‍🏫
<a href="/en/translator/alma-barroca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Joined: 05.04.2012

Hey. It was brought to our knowledge and we discussed among us in private. No Mod agreed the emoji should remain, as such Icey was correct to remove them. Even the album booklet was brought up for discussion, we agreed that it was there only for aesthetic purpose, having no real meaning.

And I have to ask to mind your tone. Do not call people names because you disagree with what was done by them.

Also,

Zitat:

Not only that, but the readability of the lyrics has been significantly reduced by the removal of pictograms, which serve as spaces between the names of cheese!

Sorry, but that makes no sense.

Moreover, emoji afaik is NOT a part of Japanese language. Never have I seen any speaker using it (and I'm basing myself on the translations and translators on this here website).

Editor in search of Anningan & Malina
<a href="/en/translator/anerneq" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1112972">Anerneq</a>
Joined: 10.05.2012

Emojis can't be included in the lyrics of a song. This rule was created because some people started posting lyrics and translations that contained exclusively emojis. Translating is about making something understandable: if a text is full of emojis without any word, it becomes a rebus game, not a poetic or artistic piece.

That said, I think we can make an exception here. Emojis aren't causing any trouble in the understanding of the lyrics. As Sionnach said, they actually make them more readable (if you don't know, Japanese uses a combination of three writing system, usually without any space between a word and the following one. The different characters help Japanese people to better indentify each word in a sentence), because they separate the different words written in katakana.
The emojis are also used in the official source, the booklet, and I think that alone is a good reason to allow emojis in this particular case.
I've done a quick research. The original artist is a Vtuber, characterised by stereotypical kawaii looks and behaviour. This characteristic of her personality is also shown through the use of emojis in the lyrics of this song. This is not really about aesthetics, but more about keeping the character consistent by making their content unique and distinctive from other regular artists with their regular lyrics. This has artistic value, in my opinion.

I wanted to add one last thing. If you disagree with the actions of a Mod, please don't say that their reasons were "irrational". It comes across as a little bit aggressive and exaggerated, while Mods are people like everyone else that just try to make the website better, correcting people's mistakes and so on. No reason to get too offended about it, we can just talk it through.

Senior Member 田中
<a href="/en/translator/sionnach-macsionnaigh" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1496152">Sionnach MacSionnaigh</a>
Joined: 06.04.2021

Thank you very much for understanding Japanese culture and concept of kawaii.
I appreciate and proud of you very well.

It would be presumptuous to ask for forgiveness, because my English is Engrish, disgracefully, sometimes I don't know how to ask rightly.

Moderator poromboessara 👨🏻‍🏫
<a href="/en/translator/alma-barroca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Joined: 05.04.2012

First, I don't think you should have brought private messages between you and Icey to the public eye. PMs are private for a reason.

No, the lyrics' integrity wasn't destroyed. They're still understandable. 'Japanese are native of Emoji', sorry, but again, that makes no sense. Emoji was never meant to be used as a language - natural or constructed. Just because emoji was created in Japan it doesn't mean anything. I have never seen any lyrics website allowing emoji to be added among lyrics. We won't be the first to do that. Your arguments have nothing to do with language, they're based on your own view of how language(s) should work. I have also NEVER seen any Japanese speaker using emoji in their writing (and again I mention Japanese translations on this website), so that's also something not true.

As far as I know, all those signs you mentioned help understand and write Japanese. Emoji do not. As my fellow staff member mentioned, we had one translation written in full emoji. Should we allow it? How to understand it? Different from the etymological /h/ in several languages, which has a reason to exist and remain there. Punctuation also needs to be there as it emphasizes and can drastically change meaning of a sentence when it's not present.

Zitat:

If you say that, then all Japanese characters are "only for aesthetic purposes".
It is up to the author to decide whether to use kanji, hiragana or katakana. It reflects emotion and personality of the speaker.

Makes no sense, again. If you add a random Japanese character to a text like 'We all go 道', it will make no sense. Onomatopoeic is part of language, random drawings are not. So it will be removed. Japanese has never made any reference to changing kanji to emoji. I could go and say 👶🦷👎. Would you understand what I'm saying?

Zitat:

”No Mod agreed the emoji should remain” cannot become a reason.
I want for you to provide rational reasons if you have.

This community is moderated and we often discuss issues. What we decided, actually, is a reason for acting. Icey had doubts, we discussed, no one thought it had any value, so we removed it.

Zitat:

The emojis are also used in the official source, the booklet, and I think that alone is a good reason to allow emojis in this particular case.

It was brought up and considered.

Senior Member 田中
<a href="/en/translator/sionnach-macsionnaigh" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1496152">Sionnach MacSionnaigh</a>
Joined: 06.04.2021

I am an ethnic minority here, therefore, I feel it's unfair.

I know that there is only one Japanese moderator in this site.
I didn't hear her opinion yet.
It's not too late to decide the principle after that.

それとあえてこの部分は母語で書きますが
もしあなたがたが一般利用者に強制したいことがあれば、ユーザー登録の際に規約としてそれを提示してください。
ワイらはキッズやのうて大人やろ?契約を交わして互いに法的責任負いましょうや?
And I dare write this part in my mother language
If there are anything you wish to enforce against the common users, please indicate them in the agreement when the registration. We are not kids, but adults, so by signing a contract we'll get legally responsible for our actions each other.

Moderator poromboessara 👨🏻‍🏫
<a href="/en/translator/alma-barroca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Joined: 05.04.2012

Sorry, but what?! What does removing emoji have to do ethnic minorities and their treatment? I myself, considering a part of my family, am also a part of one, so what do you actually want to bring up? And WHAT does this have to do with signing contracts? If you decide to open an account here you hereby agree to be a part of the community and abide by the rules. You weren't asked to give any personal information and LT is not a work tool or a service you pay to use, it's an online community for people who are into languages. Also, what does legal responsibility have to do with this?

I really not wanted to do that, but as you wished, I'll tag a few other Japanese speakers, including staff members, so they can share their opinion. [@M Naomi] [@Musunee] [@snorio] [@kubeseba]

Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!
<a href="/en/translator/testament" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1333527">TeSTaMeNT</a>
Joined: 31.03.2017

Please pay respect to Linguistics, interpretation and translation studies for god's sake!

You CANNOT use emojis unlesss author used them!

Editor
<a href="/en/translator/m-naomi" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1287215">M Naomi</a>
Joined: 11.04.2016

田中さん、初めまして。MNaomiです。よろしくお願いいたします
話が長くなっているようですが、田中さんのおっしゃりたいのは「絵文字を使ってはいけないという明確なルールがないのに、使わないように言われたことを理不尽に感じる」ということでしょうか

それでは私からの提案ですが、「絵文字に関する明確なルールを作ってほしい」と提起されてはいかがでしょう。

複数の方から反対意見を出されて、いいお気持ちではないでしょうが、おっしゃるような民族差別的な内容ではないと存じます。そこははっきりさせておかれた方がと思います。

絵文字と言うのは確かに日本語ですが、これが世界で使われていると言うのは、今初めて知りました。
私は田中さんの親の世代(多分)で、絵文字はLINEでしか使いません。これが日本固有の文化とは感じられません。

田中さんは優れた英語力をお持ちで、この歌の訳も絵文字なしで十分だと存じます。
とりあえず、ご提案まで。

(なお、私はeditor=編集者で、文字の訂正のみができます。日本人でmoderator=仲介者の方は私の知る限りおられません。ルール作りはadministratorがされるのではないでしょうか)

Brief contents of the upper message ↓
Dear Tanaka,

Your trouble is "you feel unreasonable as you told not to use emoji, though there is no clear rule", right?
So I suggest you to ask LT to make a rule about emoji.

But I don't think the messages to you include any type of discrimination.
You had better understand that.

Emoji is Japanese idiom (meaning picture letter), but I don't think it is proper only in Japan.
Your English is great, so your translation is enough without emoji.

This is my suggestion, thank you.

Banned User
<a href="/en/translator/flamingspinach" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1518924">flamingspinach</a>
Joined: 23.11.2021
M Naomi schrieb:

絵文字と言うのは確かに日本語ですが、これが世界で使われていると言うのは、今初めて知りました。
私は田中さんの親の世代(多分)で、絵文字はLINEでしか使いません。これが日本固有の文化とは感じられません。

This is somewhat of a digression, but in case anyone's interested... for what it's worth, there are more connections between emoji and Japan than simply the origin of the word "emoji" -- for example, there are many emoji that represent symbols or concepts that have little or no currency outside of Japan / Japanese culture, e.g.:

🔰 "beginner" symbol
💢 anger symbol
👹👺 oni and tengu (beings from Japanese mythology)
😤 triumphant face (many non-Japanese people misunderstand this face to mean "angry" or other emotions)
💮 "well done" symbol commonly stamped on Japanese grade schoolers' homework (in many fonts it literally says たいへんよくできました inside it in Japanese, but non-Japanese people tend to simply call it the "white flower" emoji)
📛 tulip shaped name tag commonly seen in Japanese schools
🌸 sakura (Japanese cherry blossom)
🍘🍙🍛🍜🍢🍤🍥🍡 various Japanese foods -- senbei, onigiri, curry rice, ramen, oden, sushi, ebi fry / shrimp tempura, narutomaki / fish cake, dango
🍶 Japanese sake
🗾 a map of Japan
🗻 Mt. Fuji
🏣 building with the Japanese post office symbol (〒) on it
🏯 Japanese castle
🗼 Tokyo Tower
🎋🎍🎎🎏🎑 symbols from various Japanese traditional festivals or events (Tanabata wish slips, Kadomatsu new year decoration, Hinamatsuri dolls, Koinobori windsocks, Tsukimi dango)
🎴 Hanafuda (a type of Japanese playing card)
👘 Kimono (Japanese clothing)
🏮 Chouchin (Japanese paper lantern)
💹 Graph with Japanese yen symbol
🈁🈂️🈷️🈶🉐🈹🈲🉑🈸🈴🈳🈺🈵 various Japanese words on tiles/buttons/stickers

It's fair to say that no other culture has such a large number of special emoji made for it Regular smile The reason is that, as the OP said, emoji were invented in Japan many years before they became used in other countries. They were introduced in the ガラケー "feature phones" that were ubiquitous in Japan for many years before smartphones became popular, but never existed in any other countries.

Moderator and earthbound misfit
<a href="/en/translator/icey" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1172336">Icey</a>
Joined: 05.04.2013
flamingspinach schrieb:

Sionnach, I inform you that opening secondary accounts is strictly forbidden on Lyrics Translate, as per rules:

FAQ schrieb:

Only one account is allowed per user, duplicate accounts (when found or reported) will be deleted.

[source]

Banned User
<a href="/en/translator/shampooh" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1519098">Shampooh</a>
Joined: 25.11.2021
Icey schrieb:

HI, FS is not a sock puppet account lol, I'm not sure how you see someone suddenly have a completely different vernacular with perfect English, and conclude that it's the native of Japan you were just speaking to.
I am responsible for bringing this thread to his attention, having seen it shared by another friend and feeling compelled to share it with some other friends in translation communities for us all to have a good laugh. Good Samaritan that he is, Spinach came here to hopefully try and educate everyone a little further and provide additional support to the concerns that Sionnach was presenting, because while he certainly went way too hard on the aggression of the arguments, his original points are still entirely valid.
Evidently, the expectation of an actual dialogue here was setting the bar too high. I suppose it must be pretty hard to believe that someone else dissenting to your small secular group might actually exist.

Moderator poromboessara 👨🏻‍🏫
<a href="/en/translator/alma-barroca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Joined: 05.04.2012

Hmm, there's something fishy... You claim *you* brought the issue for Sionnach's attention... They were last seen on November 23, you joined November 25. Your only contribution so far was taking part in this here thread... And the lyrics which were edited were added on November 17... 🤔 How were you able to contact them before even joining the community and know about this issue?

Sionnach, we know it's you again as *Shampooh*. The more accounts you create to support your first one, the worse it will be for it as blocks will be longer. I advise you to wait for a while till your cumulative blocks expire, which will be soon, then you can try to start arguing once again, in a reasonable way. Else, if abuse of this thread persists, I'll close it.

Consider ✍️ (taking notes) of that in a 📝(notebook) so you won't forget.

Thanks.

Banned User
<a href="/en/translator/frag" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1519160">Frag</a>
Joined: 25.11.2021

You realize other websites and services (like Discord) exist, right? We've been watching and making fun of this thread from a distance before some of us decided to join in lol
Really puttin your braincells to use there huh
Discord screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/qA14xAW.png

You can ban me too if you want I don't have any desire to contribute to a site like this 👋

Moderator poromboessara 👨🏻‍🏫
<a href="/en/translator/alma-barroca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Joined: 05.04.2012

*Incomprehensibly stupid*? Dude, I'm close to 30 here and have been called worse things in real life, if you want to offend me you'll have to do more and go deeper than that. It's not someone I barely know who'll make my nerves boil, honestly. Really, grow on, work on yourself so you'll be noticed by your good qualities, then win a place for yourself in the world, kiddo.

Thread will be closed, all users reported to Admin. Further action will be taken if needed.

[@Sionnach MacSionnaigh], abuse of the community has led into forceful edit of translation - and authorship will be lifted.