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[SOLVED] Qur'an

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Can the verses in the Qur'an be considered poetic?.

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<a href="/en/translator/t-c-nazli-volkan" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1284725">T C Nazli Volkan</a>
Joined: 25.03.2016

Please, don't come up with the arguments of the religious people. The arguments such as, ''It's God's book, therefore, you can't call it poetry!'' e.t.c (I know the Qur'an itself claims that the Qur'an isn't poetry but the true word of God.)
But to anyone who goes through it, any verse in the Qur'an looks, sounds, and tastes like any other great ancient poems out there. Please, let me know your true ideas about the subject. Is Qur'an poetic?. Would you say the verses in the Qur'an can be considered poems or not? (living out the question whether it is a Holy book or if it were actually written by God e.t.c). All I want to know is this: Is the Qur'an poetic? Many thanks for your answers already.

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Surah Ash-Shams [91] The Qur'an

Veş şemsi ve duhâhâ.
Vel kameri izâ telâhâ.
Ven nehâri izâ cellâhâ.
Vel leyli izâ yagşâhâ.
Ves semâi ve mâ benâhâ.
Vel ardı ve mâ tahâhâ.
Ve nefsin ve mâ sevvâhâ.
Fe elhemehâ fucûrehâ ve takvâhâ.
Kad efleha men zekkâhâ.
Ve kad hâbe men dessâhâ.
Kezzebet semûdu bi tagvâhâ.
İzin baase eşkâhâ.
Fe kâle lehum resûlullâhi nâkatallâhi ve sukyâhâ.
Fe kezzebûhu fe akarûhâ fe demdeme
aleyhim rabbuhum bi zenbihim fe sevvâhâ.
Ve lâ yehâfu ukbâhâ.

Poem?
It certainly looks like one!. (whether it is a holy one or not; that me donno or no care. but all the verses of the Qur'an are in a similar fashion to this one. So, I believe the original lyrics and it's translations should be allowed to be added here on LT.)

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<a href="/en/translator/arzu-turan" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1411883">Arzu Turan</a>
Joined: 08.02.2019

Yes, it really is an interesting subject. I was also wondering why there aren't any translations of the Qur'an (the most celebrated Arabic poetry book of all times) in the LT. This is the Latin transcription of the verse Al-Rahman from Qur'an. It certainly looks like a poem to me...

Rahman Suresi:

Er rahman.
Allemel kur’ane.
Halekal insane.
Allemehul beyan.
Eş şemsu vel kameru bi husban.
Ven necmu veş şeceru yescudan.

Ves semae rafeaha ve vedaal mizan.
Ella tatğav fil mizan.
Ve ekıymul vezne bil kıstı ve la tuhsirul mizan.
Vel erda vedaaha lil enam.
Fiha fakihetuv ven nahlu zatul ekmani.
Vel habbu zul asfi ver rayhan.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Halekal’insane min salsalin kelfahhari.
Ve hale kalcanne min maricin min narin.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Rabbulmeşrikayni ve rabbulmağribeyni.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Mereclbahreyni yeltekıyani.
Beynehuma berzahun la yebğıyani.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Yahrucu minhumellu’lu velmercanu.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.

Ve lehulcevarilmunşeatu fiylbahri kela’lami.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Kullu men ‘aleyha famin
Ve yebka vechu rabbike zulcelali vel’ikrami.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Yes’eluhu men fiyssemavati vel’ardı kulle yevmin huve fiy şe’nin.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Senefruğu lekum eyyuhessekaleni.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Ya ma’şerelcinni vel’insi inisteta’tum en tenfusu min aktarissemavati vel’ardı fenfuzu la tenfizune illa bisultanin.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Yurselu ‘aleykuma şuvazun min narin ve nuhasun fela tentesırani.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Feizenşakkatesissemau fekanet verdeten keddihani.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Feyevmeizin la yus’elu ‘an zenbihi insun vela cannun.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani
Yu’refulmucrimune bisiymahum feyu’hazu binnevasıy vel’akdami.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Hazihi cehennemulletiy yukezzibu bihelmucrimune.
Yetufune beyneha ve beyne hamiymin anin.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Ve limen hafe mekame rabbihi cennetani.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Zevata efnanin.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Fiyhima ‘aynani tecriyani.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezzibani.
Fiyhima min kulli fakihetin zevcani.
Febieyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban.
Muttekiiyne ala furuşim betainuha min istebrak ve cenel cenneteyni dan.
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban.
Fihinne kasıratut tarfi lem yatmishunne insun kablehum ve la can.
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban.
Ke ennehunnel yakıtı vel mercan.
Fe be eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban.
Hel cezaul ıhsani illel ihsan.
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban.
Ve min dunihima cennetan.
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban
Mudhammetan
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban
Fihima aynani neddahatan.
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban
Fihima fakihetuv ve nahluv ve rumman
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban
Fihinne hayratun hısan
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban
Hurum maksuratun fil hıyam
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban
Lem yatmishunne insun kablehum ve la can
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban
Muttekiiyne ala rafrafin hudriv ve abkariyyin hısan
Fe bi eyyi alai rabbikuma tukezziban
Tebarakesmu rabbike zil celali vel ikram.

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<a href="/en/translator/brat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1334845">Brat</a>
Joined: 13.04.2017

Well, the Arabic language is poetic by design...

Editor of Arabia.. and beyond
<a href="/en/translator/tootv" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1176366">Toot_v</a>
Joined: 17.05.2013

Each prophet was sent with a miracle that challenges the prophet's people in what they're best at (i.e. Moses' stick and hand were things that his people who were the best at witchcraft couldn't imitate or beat). Arabs, or Quraish, Prophet Mohammed's people, were unmatched in their mastery of the Arabic language, so prophet Mohammed, who was illiterate, came with the miracle of Quran, which no one could ever match to this day. Quran sounding rhythmic and poetic doesn't necessarily mean it's poetry in itself, because no poet could ever come up with something matching, not to mention surpassing. And I guarantee you that if someone came up with very neat Arabic poetry and claimed it's from the Quran, even someone with an average knowledge of Quran would tell it's not.

It's a very tricky thing to properly translate the Quran. Even Arabic linguists have to specifically study the Quranic sentence structures and implications. A sentence might seem to indicate something and then when you dive into it, it can mean something totally different. The average person cannot really and accurately translate the Quran, at least for the most part. There's a handful amount of improper translations out there already, and I think it's better not to increase them by people starting to publish translations, unless there's someone who's absolutely qualified to do so.

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<a href="/en/translator/t-c-nazli-volkan" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1284725">T C Nazli Volkan</a>
Joined: 25.03.2016

We weren't arguing here about the greatness of the poetic properties of the Quran. The case was this: Can the verses in the Quran qualify for a poem?. I mean according to uncle google: The poetry is a form of writing in verse, which usually has a musical quality obtained through the specific use of literary elements such as meter and rhyme, and literary devices such as alliteration, onomatopoeia, and other vivid forms of imagery. All of which you can find in the Qur'an. Qur'an certainly has it's own meter and rhyme and alliteration that gives it a really good musical quality. So why are we not allowed to add the verses from the Quran on LT' s poetry section?.

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<a href="/en/translator/t-c-nazli-volkan" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1284725">T C Nazli Volkan</a>
Joined: 25.03.2016

I'm sorry but, I don't buy into the arguments of the Quran being hard to translate. It certainly is an easy book to recite, understand and to keep in mind. The poetic quality of it allows it to be learned and remembered very quickly indeed. If it's easy to understand and to keep in mind then it must be easy to translate also. I read the 1000-year-old Turkish translation of the Quran and that of today's'. I see can no difference at all in the overall meaning really. For, it is the same old Quran. وَلَقَدْ يَسَّرْنَا الْقُرْآنَ لِلذِّكْرِ فَهَلْ مِن مُّدَّكِرٍ

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<a href="/en/translator/tootv" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1176366">Toot_v</a>
Joined: 17.05.2013

I wasn't talking about the greatness of the Quran because that speaks for itself. I was talking about why it's not poetry in itself. If no poet can come up with something similar or better, it cannot be limited to 'poetry'. Hearing any poetry and being able to tell it's not from Quran definitely doesn't qualify it to be considered poetry. God himself denied it being poetry "و ما هو بقول شاعر" when people claimed it's poetry.

I didn't say that the Quran is hard to memorize or to learn, there are numerous non-natives who know it by heart, but that doesn't qualify everyone to translate everything in the Quran accurately. The Quran was written to also challenge the minds and to make people contemplate and think thoroughly, that's why even natives have to study it by learning the tafseer... etc. All those books explaining different meaning that some of the verses can hold or verses who appear to have a meaning at first that turns out to be not the actual meaning when you pay a closer look. You cannot trust that everyone who read the Quran and know other languages can accurately translate everything, Everyday we see crooked translations of linguistically below-average songs and poems, so at least out of respect it's best to leave it out to trusted sources.

Editor of Arabia.. and beyond
<a href="/en/translator/tootv" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1176366">Toot_v</a>
Joined: 17.05.2013

Brat's post holds some truth to it. Fundamentally, and this is per the top Arab linguists and NOT religious scholars, the talking of Arabs is either Poetry or Prose. The Quran doesn't qualify as either because it doesn't abide by Poetry nor Prose rules. It is classified as Quran. In Arabic, not every rhythmic-sounding form of writing/talking is considered poetry. ( كِتَابٌ أُحْكِمَتْ آيَاتُهُ ثُمَّ فُصِّلَتْ مِنْ لَدُنْ حَكِيمٍ خَبِيرٍ )

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''The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions''. I would trust more on translations that can be openly discussed and voted than the ones done behind closed doors by some ''trusted sources''. Many of the so-called trusted sources turn out to be total sorceries when put into trial, my dear human brother.

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<a href="/en/translator/tootv" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1176366">Toot_v</a>
Joined: 17.05.2013

I don't think that we need to add to the chaos. Just saying.

There are already well-written sources and great scholars to refer to. It is the responsibility of the seeker to filter out the information in order to reach what he/she is actually seeking; the truth.

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<a href="/en/translator/maluca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1206376">maluca</a>
Joined: 30.04.2014

I wouldn't mind having it here, but the original lyrics should be only the Arabic original version. But on the other hand I think it has been translated extensively already...

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Thanks. This was exactly what l was on about. Quran is unarguably a great poetic master piece of the Arabic language. Having this great poetic masterpiece along with its many translations in many other languages on the same page would allow many people not only to exercise with their Arabic skills but would also enable them to compare many languages with one another using the same source as the base lyrics. The translations of the Quran in other languages are in fact done with much care. So l think it would be great having well-known masterpieces such Quran to be published on the site. I think not only the Quran but the religious hymns, songs, and poems -in short, all well-known literature should be allowed to be published.

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<a href="/en/translator/ahmad140" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1406835">Ahmad140</a>
Joined: 25.12.2018

It certainly has sort of a "poetic" feel to it (for its music, flow, and rhymes), but it isn't really a set of poems using the classical Arabic standard for poems.

To be considered a poem (in the classical sense), something has to be made of 2-part verses designed based on semi-rigid consonant patterns (that can be slightly varying from one poem to another). This is not satisfied in the Quran.

In the modern sense, there are two new definitions for poems. The first one (which can still be somewhat a poem, in my opinion) is a set of verses (that don't have to be symmetrical or consist of 2 parts each, unlike the classical definition) that still follow a set of consonant patterns. This is also not satisfied.

The last modern definition is that anything that rhymes and is intended as a poem is a poem (no conditions). I'd say this definition is really problematic and would be destructive to Arabic poetry. However, only based on this definition can the Quran be considered similar to "a poem".

So, I would say the Quran can't really be considered poetic in any formal sense (but it can in some loose sense).

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Thanks for your opinion, Ahmad. I believe the Qur'an was intentionally written in a poetic way (by God or by men that is up to others to decide). It is so poetic that the whole book can actually be sung. And the melody it brings out as it is sung is so beautiful that it brings tears out of the eyes of those who can't even understand what is being said in it. So, the purpose of the poetic style it was written is not all that hard to grasp. Whoever'd written the Qur'an had in the mind it to be sung in a certain way. The rhyming, the alliterations in the Qur'an are proof for this. You can't just pick up any book and sing it unless of course, the book was a poetry book and it was written in a poetic style. We in the Turkic countries have our destans (epic story-songs. some of which are ten times lengthier than the Qur'an). They were developed by the Turkish nation over the past thousands of years. They were written to be sung. You can also read them but it is not the same thing. If you were to see some of them on paper you could hardly call them poems. But they, in fact, are beautiful poems when you listen to them being sung. For rhyming of the ancient poems were mostly in the stresses that were put in at the end of the first words and those in the middle of the sentences. So even most unlikely a few lines that you wouldn't think much of does actually sound so beautiful when sung it is just unbelievable. Just like Qur'an. When it's being recited with its right melody it softens the hearts of even the toughest and brings tears from their eyes. Qur'an verses are in fact one of the most well-written poems of all times. We can't judge the old poems by modern standards.

Moderator / hippie-abraça-árvore
<a href="/en/translator/maluca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1206376">maluca</a>
Joined: 30.04.2014

Well, it's up to the administration to decide. Recently it was decided to stop letting users upload movie dialogues or monologues and a rule was fixed that only songs and poems should be uploaded. We haven't discussed about religious content that is not a song yet. There are religious songs here, such as hymns or nasheeds or mantras. But to upload the Qu´ran would be quite a task. How many sures are there?

Moderator / hippie-abraça-árvore
<a href="/en/translator/maluca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1206376">maluca</a>
Joined: 30.04.2014

I mean, next thing someone wants to upload the Bible...

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<a href="/en/translator/carnivorouslamb" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1109697">phantasmagoria</a>
Joined: 31.03.2012

I have one question: Why do you want the Qur'an here?
You can google it and find sites dedicated to translating it to many languages:
https://quran.com/?local=en
http://qurango.com/spanish.html
http://www.corano.it/corano.html
https://www.coran-francais.com/
http://islam.de/quran
http://www.quran-for-all.com/language-pt.html

etc.

Now that I think of it, we don't have the bible on LT either. There's literally thousands of sites dedicated to collecting it into many languages.

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I believe the Qur'an belongs here. I mean it is a beautiful set of poems composed to be sung. And when it is sung by the right person the melody of it is really fascinating. Have a listen to this one for instance. https://youtu.be/gfP1PujutKI . This verse has rhyming lyrics and it is sung beautifully. Who could say this piece of work hasn't any poetic or melodic value. If someone was to bring out a piece of work like this one tomorrow then I bet it would be hit song in so many countries in no time. This site is for music lovers. And I think any music lover should at least once in their lifetime give an ear to the melody of the Qur'an. I'm not a religious person myself. I don't really care about all the religious arguments. And, I can tell you the Arabic language isn't even in one of my favorite languages. But there is something fascinating about the melody of the Quran. And the verses of the Quran were composed beautifully. I believe such an elaborate masterpiece needs to be given the place it deserves. It is up to the moderators to decide where on the site it needs to be placed. In amongst the religious poems or in among the Classical Arabic, I can't say. But it needs to be here on LT. If there is another piece of a religious or a non-religious set of poems which can be sung beautifully anywhere in the world then why not add them also onto the site. This is Lyricstranslate after all. Any piece of work that has literature and melodic value needs to be giving the right of entry, I think.

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114 chapters to be precise. I can take it upon myself to upload all the verses along with the best singing videos of them. That's no bother.

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<a href="/en/translator/allahovrob" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263102">Allahov_Rob</a>
Joined: 19.10.2015
T C Nazli Volkan wrote:

I'm sorry but, I don't buy into the arguments of the Quran being hard to translate. It certainly is an easy book to recite, understand and to keep in mind.

I am a student of Islamic sciences and first of all I have to say that this is absolutely not true. It is a fact that the Qur'an is VERY difficult not just to translate, but even to understand and interpret. Even those whom the Arabic language is their mother tongue, cannot understand all of it easily without using Tafsirs, Dictionaries, etc. It is written in a highly complex way.

First of all, there is no such a thing as a "translation" of the Qur'an, because such is impossible to make - there are only "interpretations" of the Qur'an, that's how we call them. And even if you compare them you can see that they can be very different. We say that no one but God Almighty knows the true meaning of a lot of verses.

Kumania wrote:

I can take it upon myself to upload all the verses along with the best singing videos of them. That's no bother.

The problem with using words such as "poetry" and "singing" with the Qur'an is that these terms have a highly negative connotation in the Islamic culture, and that's where it gets problematic. Although one may technically say that such text may qualify as something which we may define as "poetry", the Qur'an is not a work of poetry and cannot be classified as such.

Also, the Qur'an is not sung, it's recited. People which aren't familiar with it, often may confuse such terms. "Singing" has a positive connotation in the West, however, in the Islamic culture, such term has a negative connotation instead, it's often associated with partying, enjoying oneself and drinking and other non-Islamic behaviours. The term, and also the act of singing is something which belongs to a different "world" from the one of the Qur'an... a different "sphere"... And they do not belong with each other.

Not anyone can be a Mufassir, and not anyone is able to interpret the Qur'an. It is a highly complex work of literature and art, and there are people which have dedicated their entire lives on such things. Therefore I think it is highly inappropriate for including the Qur'an on this site, together with songs and poems, it just doesn't belong there. I think that everyone, even a person who is an atheist can agree that these things don't have the same value as the Qur'an. Be it any value, even artistic value, or moral, or even, say it, "poetic" value.

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You look on the subject through your religious glasses. If you were to take your religious glasses out and look at the subject again then you would speak differently. There are Hindu Mantras, Christian Hymns, and many other chantings, religious songs(singing reciting) e.t.c from all kinds of religions around the world. Your arguments of the Quran being above poetry; (I don't know what that means.) Another commentator has also said the same thing (It is not poetry! It is more than poetry! No poetry can reach the power of the eloquence of the Quran e.t.c. ) The same arguments were going on even at the time of Muhammed the Prophet. People (rich& educated Arabs!) who listened the Quran has said: Surely this is a poem. Yes, surely anyone who would read it and listen to it being sung would not say otherwise. Quran is a book made of sets of beautifully composed poems. You may believe it to be from God and another man might think it was written by a very good poet. But this doesn't change the fact the Quran been composed of sets of poems to be sung in a certain way. Just like the songs of other religions. And, I believe such a beautiful piece of work needs to be in Lyricstranslate for people to be able to listen to it being sung and contemplate about it by reading different translations of it and having the chance to ask questions about the way it was composed and about its literal content. Quran according to the Quran was written to be read by the man. The ordinary man just like me and you. By saying: ''Its not poetry! It is much greater than poetry! It has its own category! None can understand it unless they study it 55 years! e.t.c;'' what you are actually doing is this, you are placing Quran somewhere so high that no ordinary man can reach it!. No, my friend. Quran according to the Quran was written to be read, to be contemplated and to be discussed. And, according to the Quran, it is an easy book to read, recite and understand. (It took me only short few months to memorize 20 chapters! I'm not even an Arab, mind.). Yes, of course the Quran can't be easily understood by anyone who isn't acquainted with the Arabic literature of the age it was written in. It is normal people would resort to dictionaries. It is the same thing with any piece of art literature. Do you think ''John the timber'' can just pick up The Sonnets of William Shakespeare, read them and understand them fully?. No, of course not. There has to be some studying before we can read any kind of literature work. It is the same thing with Quran. But, saying the Quran can't be understood or translated is an injustice to the Quran itself. The style, the Quran was written is in-fact poetry. It needs to be placed in among poems so the poetry lovers can read it, listen to its verses being sung and also be able to read many translations of it at the same time. There are plenty of sites where you can read the Quran in all kinds of languages, yes. But there isn't a site where you actually have the original Quran verses along with all its translations and its songs bang on the same page for it to be compared and studied thoroughly. LT is the most ideal place for Quran to be!

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<a href="/en/translator/t-c-nazli-volkan" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1284725">T C Nazli Volkan</a>
Joined: 25.03.2016

The Dawn

Vel fecr
Ve leyâlin aşr
Veş şef’ı vel vetr
Vel leyli izâ yesr
Hel fî zâlike kasemun lizî hicr
E lem tere keyfe feale rabbuke bi âd
İreme zâtil ımâd
Elletî lem yuhlak misluhâ fîl bilâd
Ve semûdelleziyne câbûssahre bil vâd
Ve fir avne zîl evtâd
Ellezîne tagav fîl bilâd
Fe ekserû fîhel fesâd
Fe sabbe aleyhim rabbuke sevta azâb
İnne rabbeke le bil mirsâd
Fe emmel insânu izâ mebtelâhu rabbuhu
fe ekremehu ve na’amehu fe yekûlu rabbî ekremen
Ve emmâ izâ mebtelâhu
fe kadere aleyhi rızkahu fe yekûlu rabbî ehânen
Kellâ bel lâ tukrimûnel yetîm
Ve lâ tehâddûne alâ taâmil miskîn
Ve te’kulûnet turâse eklen lemmâ
Ve tuhıbbûnel mâle hubben cemmâ
Kellâ izâ dukketil ardu dekken dekkâ
Ve câe rabbuke vel meleku saffen saffâ
Ve cîe yevmeizin bi cehenneme yevmeizin
yetezekkerul insânu ve ennâ lehuz zikrâ
Yekûlu yâ leytenî kaddemtu li hayâtî
Fe yevmeizin lâ yuazzibu azâbehû ehad
Ve lâ yûsiku ve sâkahû ehad
Yâ eyyetuhen nefsul mutmainneh
İrciî ilâ rabbiki râdıyeten mardıyyeh
Fedhulî fî ibâdî
Vedhulî cennetî

Not a poem?
I think it is a very beautiful poem.
You may listen it being sung here

https://youtu.be/6osSduKpHrE

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<a href="/en/translator/allahovrob" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263102">Allahov_Rob</a>
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Kumania wrote:

There are Hindu Mantras, Christian Hymns, and many other chantings, religious songs(singing reciting) e.t.c from all kinds of religions around the world.

Absolutely, and there are also Islamic poems and songs and Nasheeds on this site as well, so I don't get the point.

Kumania wrote:

Your arguments of the Quran being above poetry; (I don't know what that means.)

By looking at its contents and the value that it holds, you will see what it means.

Kumania wrote:

But this doesn't change the fact the Quran been composed of sets of poems to be sung in a certain way. Just like the songs of other religions.

The Qur'an was not meant to be sung, but to be recited. There is a big difference. There are religious songs in Islam as well, they are called Nasheeds (Naat in Urdu, ilahi in Turkish); and they are sung. They are the equivalents of songs of other religions. However, Qur'an is something different, it's not a song, and it's not sung. Would you say that Hindu and Buddhist monks which are reciting the Mantras and Vedas are singing??

Kumania wrote:

(It took me only short few months to memorize 20 verses! I'm not even an Arab, mind.).

Few months for memorizing 20 verses is actually very long.. ':D average songs have around 20 verses and does it take you months to memorize just one song?

Qira'ah and Tajweed is a whole science on its own. Memorizing and learning the Qur'an is not all that easy. There is a lot of Tajweed rules and every single harf (letter) and tashkeel (diacritic) is to be pronounced in a certain way. Just as an example, the transliterations you posted of Surats Ash-Shams and Ar-Rahman were really really bad and not at all reflecting how it is to be pronounced. Latin alphabet is not really suitable for writing the language of the Qur'an, and in your transliteration, for example, there is no distinction between short and long vowels, between the letters ه and ح and خ - they're all written as "h";
or between ك and ق - both are written as "k" although they signify completely different sounds.
I can go on and on about the fallacies of its transliteration.

Of course that, because of the way Qur'an sounds (you may characterize it as "melodic"), it may be easy to memorize it phonetically, but reading and pronouncing it correctly is a different story.

Kumania wrote:

But, saying the Quran can't be understood or translated is an injustice to the Quran itself.

I didn't say my own opinion, but I said something which is factual. It is not an injustice to the Qur'an itself. The Qur'an has some verses which are more simple and easily understandable (Muhkam); but it also has verses which are absolutely not understandable (Mutashabih), and in Islam we say that they are only understood by the God Almighty. People may attempt to interpret them, which they do, and they may come with theories, etc. but nobody can definitively and conclusively translate them (you can even read it yourself in the Ali Imran 7).

Kumania wrote:

It needs to be placed in among poems so the poetry lovers can read it, listen to its verses being sung and also be able to read many translations of it at the same time.

Placing the Qur'an among mere poetry and even calling it poetry is an offense to the Qur'an. People which want to read the Qur'an can easily access it on the internet. There is a ton of websites dedicated to it, and everybody who wants to find it, can easily do so. I just don't think it's appropriate to put it on this site, that's it.

Kumania wrote:

There are plenty of sites where you can read the Quran in all kinds of languages, yes. But there isn't a site where you actually have the original Quran verses along with all its translations and its songs bang on the same page for it to be compared and studied thoroughly. LT is the most ideal place for Quran to be!

This is just straight up not true. Almost every single site which has the Qur'anic text on it, has the translation side by side. The website https://quran.com even has an option to click on every individual word and get the translation and pronunciation of it.

I don't think it requires any "religious glasses" to see things which are factual and clear. For anyone who is knowledgeable enough on the subject, this entire conversation is not at all needed.

Super Member
<a href="/en/translator/allahovrob" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263102">Allahov_Rob</a>
Joined: 19.10.2015
T C Nazli Volkan wrote:

Vel fecr
Ve leyâlin aşr
Veş şef’ı vel vetr
Vel leyli izâ yesr
Hel fî zâlike kasemun lizî hicr
E lem tere keyfe feale rabbuke bi âd
İreme zâtil ımâd

Qur'an is only one, and the only thing which we actually call the "Qur'an" is the Qur'anic text itself. We don't call translations of the Qur'an - "Qur'an" - we call them "Qur'anic translations" which they are. I hope you are following what I'm saying so far.

The same thing goes with transliterations.

With that in mind, that which you just wrote is not Qur'an, because the horrible transliteration which you guys are using is missing half of the letters and signs.

In other words, you are butchering it with your bad transliteration.

This is the proper Qur'anic verse:

اعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم
بسم الله الرحمان الرحيم

وَالْفَجْرِ ۝
وَلَيَالٍ عَشْرٍ ۝
وَالشَّفْعِ وَالْوَتْرِ ۝
وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا يَسْرِ ۝
هَلْ فِي ذَٰلِكَ قَسَمٌ لِّذِي حِجْرٍ ۝
أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ فَعَلَ رَبُّكَ بِعَادٍ ۝
إِرَمَ ذَاتِ الْعِمَادِ ۝

صدق الله العظيم

What I wrote is the Qur'an, but what you wrote isn't the Qur'an. I hope you get my point.

Member
<a href="/en/translator/t-c-nazli-volkan" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1284725">T C Nazli Volkan</a>
Joined: 25.03.2016

I have copied and pasted the Turkish Latin transcriptions of the verses just to show the readers that, the structure of the Quranic verses are poetic.
Turkish Latin alphabet isn't the best of the alphabets to write Arabic and it isn't the best of transliterations. I'm aware of that. (I can do a much better job with an adjusted Latin alphabet if I was to try.) Quran is composed of poems which one can sing. You may want to call it chanting, reciting or whatever you like. It is obvious this book was written to be read out with a melody. Yes, some religious people would actually be very very angry if someone was reciting the Quran without actually observing its melodic rules (rules which you seem to know better.). So it is a book composed poetically to be read out with melody. Then, what should we call it?. Check out all the songs& poems (religious or non-religious ones) on this site and you would see they are all composed poetically to be sung with a certain melody, aren't they?. Use of poetic style isn't limited to Islamic verses. You would see this in the Old Testament, in the books of the Buddhists, Hindus, in the Epic songs of the Shamans of Asia& America e.t.c. They all consider their poetic literature to be God's revelations for their nations. But, that doesn't change the fact that they are poems composed to be sung. So, all of them deserves a place here on LT.

Super Member
<a href="/en/translator/allahovrob" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263102">Allahov_Rob</a>
Joined: 19.10.2015

@T C Nazli Volkan - I agree with most of what you said there with the exception of the part that they need a place on LT. My definitive decision is that I do not support it. Anyway, I'm not the one who decides.

Member
<a href="/en/translator/t-c-nazli-volkan" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1284725">T C Nazli Volkan</a>
Joined: 25.03.2016

Thanks for commenting anyway. It is all about having a discussion and finding the truth. I'm not here to judge religious matters. Or the Quran. All I know is that the Quran is a beautifully composed poetic& melodic book. I think it needs to be on LT for it is one of the best poem book out there. (You may think it as a holy book came down from heavens and I respect that.) Thanks again for your comments. Have a nice day.

Guest
Guest

This is just straight up not true. Almost every single site which has the Qur'anic text on it, has the translation side by side. The website https://quran.com even has an option to click on every individual word and get the translation and pronunciation of it. The site you've given me the link of has only the original text and the English translation of the verses. Even if it had the translations of Quran in all the languages, it isn't the same thing as having individual verses in many languages along with the original text and the singing video. What I'm trying to say here is this. There are many bilingual people on this planet. (The conquered peoples and refugees living in foreign lands). And most of these people can't actually speak their mother tongues or their adopted languages perfectly. I have witnessed this in many countries. The Kazakhs in Russia, the Uyghurs in China, the Arabs in France, the Kurds in Turkey e.t.c. And there are also many people who are learning other languages. Providing pages for them with translations of the Quran in many languages on the same page would help them understand and learn other languages much easier by, cross-examining the translations of a book they are familiar with. I was trying to learn the East Asian Turkic dialects for a long time but there was hardly any material to benefit from in order to learn them dialects. Then, I thought there surely be translations of the Quran in them languages. Yes, through reading the translations of Quran in them dialects I was able to learn many dialects in a very short time. For it is a book well known to me. Having the Quran along with many of its translations on the same page will help many people learn many languages (and help them understand the Quran better) very quickly indeed. The benefits of having the Quran are plenty. The translations of it can be obtained from reliable sources. I don't think many people will even try to take upon themselves such a heavy burden of trying to translate the verses anyway. Some might try to translate short verses according to their opinion yes. But there is the voting system here. People will know when there is a poor, incorrect translation. Thanks for your comment again. Have a nice day.

Super Member
<a href="/en/translator/brat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1334845">Brat</a>
Joined: 13.04.2017

Long before the Qur'an came to this world it was said by one of the great prophets that one should render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's... Wink smile

Super Member
<a href="/en/translator/allahovrob" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263102">Allahov_Rob</a>
Joined: 19.10.2015
Kumania wrote:

The site you've given me the link of has only the original text and the English translation of the verses.

You obviously don't know how to use the site https://quran.com It has over 50 translations in different languages including transliterations and audio.

I made these two screenshots to show you how it works:

http://oi65.tinypic.com/24v4it5.jpg

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2mzm9dt.jpg

I hope it's more clear now.

This site is all you need. Putting Qur'an on LT is unnecessary.

Super Member
<a href="/en/translator/achampnator" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1317347">Achampnator</a>
Joined: 30.11.2016

If the Quran gets a place then also the bible should get a place otherwise would it be unfair

Guest
Guest

The poems from the Old Testament can easily qualify for the place in poetry section but, I don't think the new testament has a place here. I made the case for the Qur'an to be on poetry section for it is a book written with a poetic style and can actually be sung (beautifully) from start to finish.

Super Member
<a href="/en/translator/achampnator" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1317347">Achampnator</a>
Joined: 30.11.2016

I don't want to argue but I just want to have a fair justice

Guest
Guest

Thanks for the links to the site. But, it isn't well known like the LT is it?.

Guest
Guest

Have a look through the Qur'an before passing a judgement on this issue. I am not religious myself. I couldn't care less about religious affairs. All I'm saying is this: The Qur'an is a very beautifully composed poetic and melodic book. If some of the stuff they bring out nowadays passes for a poem and grabs a place on LT then, the Qur'an with its excellent poetic composition and bewildering melody should also be giving a place. The religious ones doesn't like the idea it being called a simple poetry!, It really isn't a simple poetry!. But, nevertheless it is poetry at its best. No other poem book could be sung so beautifully from start to finish.

Editor Slim Shady
<a href="/en/translator/jethro-paris" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1225135">Jethro Paris</a>
Joined: 05.11.2014

I don't think the Qur'an or other religious books can be in LT for the simple reason that in any case, monologues and the like have just been banned, and logically, you can't transcribe books. Also, it is a site for translations of music and poems, and Qur'an is a religious text first, and there are thousands of other sites for that Wink smile

Editor
<a href="/en/translator/amateur" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1069494">amateur</a>
Joined: 12.10.2010
Jethro Paris wrote:

I don't think the Qur'an or other religious books can be in LT for the simple reason that in any case, monologues and the like have just been banned, and logically, you can't transcribe books. Also, it is a site for translations of music and poems, and Qur'an is a religious text first, and there are thousands of other sites for that Wink smile

The argument is that the Koran could be considered poetry.

Editor Slim Shady
<a href="/en/translator/jethro-paris" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1225135">Jethro Paris</a>
Joined: 05.11.2014

But as I said, this is religious text first.

Editor .
<a href="/en/translator/ingirumimusnocte" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1398405">ingirumimusnocte</a>
Joined: 09.10.2018

Be it considered poetry or not, I can hardly imagine a worse trouble magnet than a translation of a religious text.
Wisdom dictates to leave that to specialized sites, in my opinion.

Editor
<a href="/en/translator/amateur" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1069494">amateur</a>
Joined: 12.10.2010

Can't argue with that, agreed.

Editor
<a href="/en/translator/joyce-su" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1375920">Joyce Su</a>
Joined: 17.03.2018

Here is called Lyrictranslate.com. The main thing is doing translation for the lyrics of songs. Being a user and translator, I'm more like to have the lyrics of songs. I hope sincerely that we could keep away the issues of politicalizing and religion here.

Super Member
<a href="/en/translator/radu-robert" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1343167">Radu Robert</a>
Joined: 26.06.2017
Joyce Su wrote:

Here is called Lyrictranslate.com. The main thing is doing translation for the lyrics of songs. Being a user and translator, I'm more like to have the lyrics of songs. I hope sincerely that we could keep away the issues of politicalizing and religion here.

#Preach#Amentothat!

Super Member
<a href="/en/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Joined: 19.07.2018

I think there is no place on earth where we should stop discussing politics and religion. They are the main reason for wars, deaths, hatred, inhumanity - as long as there are poems and songs that are in LT, discussion should be allowed. It is better done in forum topics than under a particular item. If we are allowed to discuss topics like that, there would be less of people beautifully singing Quran but demanding death of a cartoonist...

Guest
Guest

I totally agree by your comments about inviting in religious and political arguments. But, running a site such as this one is never safe from becoming a stage for such arguments from time to time for, some of the songs and poems do include religious and political themes in them. But, I don't think having the recitation of religious texts along with their lyrics and translations obtained from official sources will cause that much of a stir. It would be great having the Qur'an here for those learning the Arabic language for the translations section has a comment box where the users can ask questions about the things they don't understand and can help each other learn each others languages.

Editor .
<a href="/en/translator/ingirumimusnocte" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1398405">ingirumimusnocte</a>
Joined: 09.10.2018

I agree trying to slip politics under the rug is the surest way to have them bite you in the ass with a revenge eventually. I mean, who would have thought only 6 months ago that in one of the richest countries in the world, crowds in yellow jackets would end up roaming the boulevards yelling blue murder at their president?

This being said, I very doubt virtual places like LT are suited to handle discussions about such controversial subjects as the founding texts of a religion.

Let's face it, Internet is probably the worst bad vibes amplifier ever created by mankind. Like a crowded marketplace where every man and his dog can barge into any conversation, with added handicaps to mutual understanding like preposterous differences in standard of living, access to information, cultural representations across the world, not to mention various levels of understanding of several languages.

I'm all for discussing the political contents of a given song or poem, but even that can only go so far before devolving into sterile arguments that end up hurting people's feelings to no avail. Sure, ignoring politics these last few decades was a mistake we'll end up paying dearly, but Internet chat is certainly not our way out of the quagmire that ensued.

Member
<a href="/en/translator/t-c-nazli-volkan" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1284725">T C Nazli Volkan</a>
Joined: 25.03.2016

This is perfectly fine literature to accommodate on this site:

''Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.''

But, the one below is a Big No No! Because you know it's religious {Islamic} and you know the religious {Islamic} literature is a magnet for trouble:

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to God, the cherisher and sustainer of all the creatures;
Most gracious, most merciful;
Master of the day of judgment.
Thee do we worship, and thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom thou hast bestowed thy grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

The discussion was meant to be about the Quran being poetic or not.

Quranic verses are not much different than those sung by the Christian Churches.
The first poem is sung by the Christians and the second one by Muslims.
That is the only difference really!

Take a look for yourself and compare, and then explain your suggestion of religious literature being a magnet for trouble, please.

Are the Christian prayers less of a magnet for trouble than the Islamic ones?

Member
<a href="/en/translator/t-c-nazli-volkan" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1284725">T C Nazli Volkan</a>
Joined: 25.03.2016

If the Christian prayers are allowed on the site then the Islamic ones should also be allowed.
If the Islamic prayers are exempt then you should clear all the other religious content off of the site as well.
Otherwise, people might start shouting double-standards!

Editor Slim Shady
<a href="/en/translator/jethro-paris" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1225135">Jethro Paris</a>
Joined: 05.11.2014

Don't accuse ingirumimusnocte of saying what he didn't say please. We are talking about all religions, not just Islam.
Here the only religion is music and It is the god, and just made a new rule where monologues and stuff like that are not allowed anymore in the site anyway.

By the way Kumania, it is prohibited to create double accounts.

Editor .
<a href="/en/translator/ingirumimusnocte" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1398405">ingirumimusnocte</a>
Joined: 09.10.2018

Indeed, I was talking about founding texts. The equivalent of the Qur'an would be, say, one of the many variants of the Bible or the Vedas.

There is nothing wrong with a religious hymn or a prayer so famous it became part of the scenery and has been known to believers and non-believers alike for centuries (at least by educated people in related cultures). That would be for instance "Our Father" for about all the Christians or "Hail Mary" for the Roman Catholic branch (and a few others maybe?).
I guess these prayers have long ceased to be controversial, except for people actively looking for a fight, but those will always manage to get into one anyway Regular smile
As for putting those on the site, why not, but they are obviously already translated in every language spoken by people who actually use them, and very easy to find provided you speak enough of the language to coax Google into fetching them from the Net.

On the other hand, translating arbitrary chunks of books like the Qur'an or the Bible would be a recipe for disaster.

In my opinion, attempting to translate these books is a global work. You can't hope to produce any meaningful translation of an arbitrary chunk taken out of its context, which goes well beyond the book itself to include the way a particular culture or religious current interprets it.
Some texts date back to the bronze age. The meanings of many words have long diverged from their mundane acceptances. Countless references cannot be understood without a serious knowledge of the underlying symbolism. Every religious group will have its own set of canonical texts that may (or not) include comments that shed a different light on the exact same words from the original book. Etc.

Unfortunately, the Internet is also this magic realm where watching some teenager regurgitate a few half-digested wiki paragraphs on Youtube is quite enough to become a self-proclaimed rocket scientist. People eager to voice authoritative opinions on the "rightness" of any given translation of such sensitive material will certainly be in no short supply.

These orphaned chunks of books whose interpretation sparked countless wars over the centuries would be of little use to those who seek knowledge, and a real gold mine for all kinds of trolls, bigots, zealots and other troublemakers.

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