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Covers

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Member
Joined: 31.08.2018
Pending moderation

What if an Add a cover button were added to the song page, next to Add new translation?

It would open a form for video URL, artist name, and maybe comments limited to a certain number of characters. It would attach to the song page as "contributed by [subscriber name]". Maybe the video image could be smaller and positioned down by idioms.

No points. It would be only for the purpose of sharing someone's favorite.

(Bad idea? Too messy? It won't hurt my feelings.)

While we're on the subject, if a duplicate song name is entered, a message could pop up as "Another song of that name exists. Please see if it's a duplicate. Covers are not permitted unless by original artist." Subscriber clicks Ok to make box go away.

Banned User The Bride
Joined: 18.11.2018

I agree with you on that.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011
BreezyDay wrote:

What if an Add a cover button were added to the song page, next to Add new translation?

It would open a form for video URL, artist name, and maybe comments limited to a certain number of characters. It would attach to the song page as "contributed by [subscriber name]". Maybe the video image could be smaller and positioned down by idioms.

No points. It would be only for the purpose of sharing someone's favorite.

(Bad idea? Too messy? It won't hurt my feelings.)

We already have the "also performed by"-field. Changes to it are being discussed.

Quote:

While we're on the subject, if a duplicate song name is entered, a message could pop up as "Another song of that name exists. Please see if it's a duplicate. Covers are not permitted unless by original artist." Subscriber clicks Ok to make box go away.

There already is a warning for adding duplicates songs for the same artist page. I would suspect that a warning for songs of the same title as any song in the database will lead to a lot of false positives, but it might be a good idea to add this if we would go ahead and only allow entries of the original version.

Super Member
Joined: 26.06.2017

Allowing covers on the site to be posted sounds much better to me . After all the site purpouse and thematic is Music , so i personally can t ever see a harm in having more versions of a song , in different interpretations posted here , it is in fact a good thing and brings diversity . Maybe i for once won t like the original artist perf , but i d like better a cover version so i would chose to translate that version insttead of the original , so yeah..

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

I have seen and used the "also performed by"-field, which is great by the way, and I did not mean to suggest that it be removed or replaced.

The extra video URLs are still worthy of consideration. It would be a social component and would make it quick and easy to hear the cover. Some covers, although having the same words, use a different style, like disco or jazz, or one live performance or a different live performance. BlackSea4ever shared a URL of Metallica's slow, orchestrated, live performance of Nothing Else Matters. I think it would be great to add this to the page.

Then again, we can put the URLs in the comments under the song. But that doesn't seem to be happening.

But it did not occur to me that changes to the "also performed by"-field are being discussed. That will be very interesting.

I am aware that the rule is in print, but new subscribers may not read the rules immediately. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many covers, I would imagine. Unless the rule is new or people are deliberately disregarding, which is possible.

As a reminder, this rule only exists on this site, because it is the only translation site. But new subscribers may be accustomed to ordinary sites which allow covers.

Just some thoughts. . .

Member
Joined: 01.04.2015
BreezyDay wrote:

It would open a form for video URL, artist name, and maybe comments limited to a certain number of characters. It would attach to the song page as "contributed by [subscriber name]". Maybe the video image could be smaller and positioned down by idioms.

I like it. personally i have mixed feelings when i see two "the same" text, added separately. sometimes it 3-4 copies of same text with different set of translations in different languages (like 1st copy have english translation, 2nd - french, 3rd - serbian. and if you open 1st copy - you wouldn't know that here [on LT] are other translations) . i prefer to see all translations in one place
(i'm stressing - that i'm talking about same lyrics, but different singers)

so it would be good to connect copies with each others

Super Member
Joined: 26.06.2017

That's why the "also performed by" field is for . If people would actually fill that field, than you could easily click on it and it ll take you to other versions of the same song , therefore you could see it clearly if that same lyrics were translated in the lang you wish to transl in . Plus that searchin on google will always provide results also on lt , meaning that if the searched song wouldn t appear with the search oprion of Lt it ll for sure appear on google if searched alike https://www.google.ro/search?client=opera&q=heaven+knows+lyricstranslate... Pretty simple

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011
Radu Robert wrote:

Allowing covers on the site to be posted sounds much better to me . After all the site purpouse and thematic is Music , so i personally can t ever see a harm in having more versions of a song , in different interpretations posted here , it is in fact a good thing and brings diversity . Maybe i for once won t like the original artist perf , but i d like better a cover version so i would chose to translate that version insttead of the original , so yeah..

So far they are allowed - however, there is also the disadvantage Lizzzard mentioned:
If the same text is to be found on two different entries, and a translation is only added to one of them, you would need to check both entries to find it. For some songs, there are a dozen or more cover versions. It also makes it more unlikely to notice if there is more than one translation into the same language, but added to different entries.
And even if each translation gets added to both/all, the comments, discussions, votes etc. added to one copy of it wouldn't normally be added to the other as well. And it would give users undeserved points to add the same translation to more than one copy of a text.

BreezyDay wrote:

I have seen and used the "also performed by"-field, which is great by the way, and I did not mean to suggest that it be removed or replaced.

The extra video URLs are still worthy of consideration. It would be a social component and would make it quick and easy to hear the cover. Some covers, although having the same words, use a different style, like disco or jazz, or one live performance or a different live performance. BlackSea4ever shared a URL of Metallica's slow, orchestrated, live performance of Nothing Else Matters. I think it would be great to add this to the page.

I would rather be in favour for extending the functionality of the "also performed by"-field to also be able to have videos attached.

Quote:

I am aware that the rule is in print, but new subscribers may not read the rules immediately. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many covers, I would imagine. Unless the rule is new or people are deliberately disregarding, which is possible.

Well, we don't have a rule against adding covers thus far - only a recommendation. And in some cases people may not even be aware that the version they are adding is a cover.
Furthermore, new users do get sent a copy of the website rules - it's their own responsibility if they don't read them.

Editor in search of Anningan & Malina
Joined: 10.05.2012

Hiya.
Just for the record, I and [@Icey] had a conversation on this. It was about the songs from "UK Eurovision: You Decide 2019". This year's format is structured so that three songs are interpreted by six artists, two for each song. She came to me expressing her concerns about adding all six songs, since the only difference is the music genre, while the lyrics are the same. We agreed on adding only one of the artists and adding the other in the "Also performed by" box, adding also the video in the "Author's comment" section.
You can check the songs here: the first one, the second one and the third one.
Judging from the comments here, I see many agree and have reached the same conclusion. Could we maybe make it official? The updated rules already mention that covers that don't differ lyrics-wise shouldn't be added as separate entries, but doesn't really mention what you're supposed to do.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011
DarkJoshua wrote:

Hiya.
Just for the record, I and [@Icey] had a conversation on this. It was about the songs from "UK Eurovision: You Decide 2019". This year's format is structured so that three songs are interpreted by six artists, two for each song. She came to me expressing her concerns about adding all six songs, since the only difference is the music genre, while the lyrics are the same. We agreed on adding only one of the artists and adding the other in the "Also performed by" box, adding also the video in the "Author's comment" section.
You can check the songs here: the first one, the second one and the third one.
Judging from the comments here, I see many agree and have reached the same conclusion. Could we maybe make it official? The updated rules already mention that covers that don't differ lyrics-wise shouldn't be added as separate entries, but doesn't really mention what you're supposed to do.

I wouldn't mind that to be official, but it's not upon me to decide. Also, I think there are a few things that first should be improved in functionality before we would go ahead and start merging all those covers with their originals.

And, there then is the question, what to do with covers with slightly different lyrics? When do cover lyrics stop being the same and start being different enough to warrant their own entry?

And in the case you have there, there is the further complication of there not being one original artist pair, but 3 pairs. Whom to put into the artist field then? The composer and lyricist? Do we know who that is?

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

Sciera: "I would rather be in favour for extending the functionality of the "also performed by"-field to also be able to have videos attached."

Good idea. I like it. Maybe you could put live performances of the same artist? Or maybe those could just go down into ordinary comments.

Sciera:"And in some cases people may not even be aware that the version they are adding is a cover."

Hence my suggestion that a message appear after title entry has been completed, this title aleady exists, please make sure yours isn't a cover, see Best Practices [link].

New subscribers are sent rules, it's their fault if they ignore.:

But how many duplicates are even noticed/reported? And what about people with reading disabilities; they can only read a paragraph. I'm thinking in terms of prevention being better than the cure. This is very hard and time-consuming to monitor. Because three songs having the exact same title might be completely different in lyrics.

The primary purpose and priority of the site is translation. I get that. The rest is just to make it more fun. But as Lizzzard and Sciera mentioned, all translations need to be in one place and easy to find.

Member
Joined: 01.04.2015

And, there then is the question, what to do with covers with slightly different lyrics?

I can suggest to make an additional field: "covers".
where you can add a link to a song (in the same way as we add a song to the collection)

so that the variation of the song appears as a link. (just like the link to the collection now appears). I'm unfortunately not a programmer to describe the technical implementation - but it would be great if after such an addition the corresponding links appeared on all covers.

example:
There are 3 versions of the song with differences in the lyrics. №1,2,3.
We fill in the "covers" field for song # 1 and add songs # 2 and # 3 to it.
Result: Links to covers appear on the page of each song.

I apologize to the developers of LT if it sounds easier for me than it really is.
 

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011
Lizzzard wrote:

And, there then is the question, what to do with covers with slightly different lyrics?

I can suggest to make an additional field: "covers".
where you can add a link to a song (in the same way as we add a song to the collection)

We already have a field that works that way: "Related". But pretty much no one uses it. And it seems like quite an effort to move all the different-lyrics-covers so far mentioned in "also performed by" into "related".

Member
Joined: 01.04.2015
Sciera wrote:

We already have a field that works that way: "Related". But pretty much no one uses it. And it seems like quite an effort to move all the different-lyrics-covers so far mentioned in "also performed by" into "related"

You've opend my eyes)))
strange that i've haven't seen when it was added/
May be we should add extended explonation, like "ADD HERE OTHER VERSIONS OF SONG"
Looks like even thouse who want to collect covers in one place - misses this feature

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011
Lizzzard wrote:
Sciera wrote:

We already have a field that works that way: "Related". But pretty much no one uses it. And it seems like quite an effort to move all the different-lyrics-covers so far mentioned in "also performed by" into "related"

You've opend my eyes)))
strange that i've haven't seen when it was added/
May be we should add extended explonation, like "ADD HERE OTHER VERSIONS OF SONG"
Looks like even thouse who want to collect covers in one place - misses this feature

Well, so far it's not really intended for covers. I think I only used it for songs with the same melody but different lyrics, e.g. adaptations into other languages.

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

I've been using related. I love it, not just between songs but between artists.

I'm going to throw one more detail in. I found some original stuff that had no footnotes, only lyrics. So I created a cover and explained the song in footnotes. I guess i could have put them in comments under the original. My rationalization was that each version had variation with first and last lines, and I wanted the song in my personal collection to reflect me.

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/harry-connick-jr-im-old-cowhand-lyrics.html

Compare https://lyricstranslate.com/en/bing-crosby-im-old-cowhand-rio-grande-lyr...

Be merciful. The lyrics overrlap 95%, but they differ in a few lines too. But look at the footnotes I added to help people from other countries.

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

I didn't notice the Related field for many months. Don't remember if I discovered it on my own or if someone told me. It's awesome.

You can connect song "families". You can also ask Admin to connect, let's say, Morrissey with the Smiths or Steve Perry with Journey or Gwen Stefani with No Doubt.

Super Member
Joined: 16.12.2017

I’ve been ignoring ‘related’ because I do not understand what it means
May you enlighten me please

Member
Joined: 01.04.2015

Well, so far it's not really intended for covers. 

I think we can definitely use it for covers. you can immediately go to the related page and see other variant (including other language versions)
may be just announce this field for slowpokes like me XD

Super Member
Joined: 16.12.2017
Lizzzard wrote:


I apologize to the developers of LT if it sounds easier for me than it really is.
 

LOL, Liz
One of my end users used to say “I can do it in Excel, why can’t you do the same in the app?” Now, she just laughs about it and says “Remember, when I used to say...”

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011
Lizzzard wrote:

Well, so far it's not really intended for covers. 

I think we can definitely use it for covers. you can immediately go to the related page and see other variant (including other language versions)
may be just announce this field for slowpokes like me XD

Also the also-performed-by-field creates a direct link if the song titles are the same.

Igeethecat wrote:

I’ve been ignoring ‘related’ because I do not understand what it means
May you enlighten me please

It was never officially announced so I don't actually know.
Sometimes this website is like an online game where the mechanics are updated from time to time without anyone explaining Wink smile

But, if you put a link to a song into the "related" field of that other song, this song will appear on the page of that other song. You can also add a note to it describing the relation.

BreezyDay wrote:

I've been using related. I love it, not just between songs but between artists.

I'm going to throw one more detail in. I found some original stuff that had no footnotes, only lyrics. So I created a cover and explained the song in footnotes. I guess i could have put them in comments under the original. My rationalization was that each version had variation with first and last lines, and I wanted the song in my personal collection to reflect me.

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/harry-connick-jr-im-old-cowhand-lyrics.html

Compare https://lyricstranslate.com/en/bing-crosby-im-old-cowhand-rio-grande-lyr...

Be merciful. The lyrics overrlap 95%, but they differ in a few lines too. But look at the footnotes I added to help people from other countries.

Footnotes like that are a further reason against (identical) cover entries - no sense in having to edit the same lyrics more than once.

And adding such footnotes could also be streamlined (if you know the website Genius.com you may know what I mean) - but well, not expecting that to be implemented anytime soon.

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

There's not just one way to use Related. But I can give you an example of a song family.

I was listening to a CD of Scots ballads, and I instantly loved one. I searched the site, and it seemed that no one has uploaded it. I could not find the lyrics, so I transcribed.

But research showed that variations of this song exist with different titles and lyrics, all from Scotland, going back to the 1800s. I need to check the site for variations. Scots is very hard for me. I do not want to create a collection unless someone else has uploaded the other versions. But if one version is anywhere, i will use related. It will create a link between them for quck access.

As for the artists that I mentioned, the Smiths started as a band. But then the lead singer, Morrissey, started a solo career. So I asked for them to be related. This creates a link between the two for quck access to the other. If you cant remember who did your favorite song, you can look for it under one name, then click on the link to check the other.

I hope that helps.

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

Your intent is excellent, but there's already a different field for that. And they're trying to get us to stop adding covers on separate pages. They're trying to figure out a way to collect covers onto one page without having to go to different pages.

Member
Joined: 01.04.2015

Also the also-performed-by-field creates a direct link if the song titles are the same.

It was never officially announced so I don't actually know.

oh dear! so sad it wasn't announced.
maybe Admins should publish extended announcement in the top of site, so users would edit their items) 

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

I used to go to Genius exclusively until I discovered this site. Problem with Genius is that once someone creates an annotation for a word/phrase, no one else can.

Member
Joined: 01.04.2015
Igeethecat wrote:
Lizzzard wrote:


I apologize to the developers of LT if it sounds easier for me than it really is.
 

LOL, Liz
One of my end users used to say “I can do it in Excel, why can’t you do the same in the app?” Now, she just laughs about it and says “Remember, when I used to say...”

XD yep. i work as testing engineer, so sometimes it's like:
-May be we should do...
Programmers: - nope-nope-definitely-nope XD

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011
BreezyDay wrote:

I used to go to Genius exclusively until I discovered this site. Problem with Genius is that once someone creates an annotation for a word/phrase, no one else can.

You can still add comments to annotations there.
Didn't use Genius much so far - I have the intention to translate the footnotes I add to translations into the language of the original lyrics and add them to the lyrics both here and on Genius, but well, there is only as much time.
Also, perhaps I use Genius less since I'm not a mod there Wink smile

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

Hm, I didnt know you could add comments to annotations. LT is so much better, i stopped going there, with two important song exceptions which I uploaded to both sites.

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

Sciera: "Footnotes like that are a further reason against (identical) cover entries - no sense in having to edit the same lyrics more than once."

I dont understand. What edits? I'm going blank.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Joined: 16.02.2011
BreezyDay wrote:

Sciera: "Footnotes like that are a further reason against (identical) cover entries - no sense in having to edit the same lyrics more than once."

I dont understand. What edits? I'm going blank.

If you add footnotes to lyrics you do so by editing them. If there is a cover entry with the same lyrics you may want to add the same footnote to that, too, so you need to edit 2 lyrics for adding the same info.

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

Okay, well I hope in the case I mentioned above in comment #16, you will allow an exception, because the lyrics vary slightly anyhow. I got out on a technicality, I think.

I will share my perspective, that I want to mark my favorite songs but if they have a video that I don't like, that feature is kind of ruined. And it bugs me to add a song to my personal collection which reflects someone else's taste. But this is not your problem. You guys can only do so much, and you're putting your heads together and coming up with great ideas, but ultimately someone is going to complain about something.

Moving forward, I may have to deprive the world of my scintillating collections. (yes, sarcasm) And I can keep a list of favorites in a phone memo and go to YouTube for my favorite version. I just like the one-stop-shop feel of containing everything within the site. It simplifies. It sounds like you guys are on board with that and looking for the best solution. There's only so much you can do.

This site is for translation primarily. I get that. But you know, if the supermarket has pleasant staff, coffee samples and a cheerful atmosphere, it creates a feeling of comfort that makes you come more often and stay longer. Same with a website. If there is a dopamine release, it makes us want to come back for it again.

I have to work hard to wrap my head around what you (and DarkJoshua) said about footnotes. There's no way I'm going to contact the uploader and say, "Would you mind adding the following 8 footnotes?" But to your point, modifying Genius's idea has merit; I'm glad it's on the table. But look at Hotel California on Genius: https://genius.com/Eagles-hotel-california-lyrics. I would hate for this to happen to LT. No disrespect to the Genius subscriber that added the commentary, they put a lot of time into it and did a good job. But I was impressed by the superiority of LT's footnote capability. It is quicker and cleaner. The other thing about genius annotations that bothers me is that if your comments are too short, they'll stop you from adding further comments. IMDB does that. If your comments aren't long enough, you cannot save them.

If I type items into the comments, will anyone scroll down to see them? The comments section is another great feature that no one seems to use. I suspect it is because they don't want to annoy the uploader. Me, I love comments, if they are polite: https://lyricstranslate.com/en/keith-frank-and-soileau-zydeco-band-co-fa....

Anyhow, thanks to communication from Mods, we know that new ideas are "cooking".

As usual, I am chatty. Time to cease and desist.

Thanks.

Moderator sapiens sapiens
Joined: 05.04.2012
Igeethecat wrote:

I’ve been ignoring ‘related’ because I do not understand what it means
May you enlighten me please

If I used this feature thrice, it was too much. Well, I wanted to link band members who had a solo career to the main band page.

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

This not only creates a shortcut, it helps us to not create a duplicate, because often the solo artist buys the rights to the music and creates a new album. If we can quickly switch back and forth, we can check for the song title in both locations to ensure that it in fact does not already exist in either location.

I could swear I asked for a related link to be created between Steve Perry and Journey, but it appears that it was not done or saved. Would you mind Juan?

Journey is hard to dig out, but Steve Perry pops up. And Igeethecat, this way if someone sees the Journey list and doesn't see Foolish Heart, hopefully they'll click on the Steve Perry link and see it there.

Moderator sapiens sapiens
Joined: 05.04.2012

Done.

Member
Joined: 01.04.2015

[@Alma Barroca] maybe some examples(explanations) could be added to a "Related" block? (so people wouldn't be confused "what is it for")
like:
Related item can be any of the following - Artist, Song, or Translation. You can search by name, or paste URL of the page you want to add as related.
So you can connect original and alternate/foreign versions of song, mark songs dedicated to other artist etc.

it's just a suggestion, because it looks like some people not sure what to do with it XD

Moderator sapiens sapiens
Joined: 05.04.2012

Nice suggestion! Well, you can only add something 'Related' adding a description, even if it's a generic one (like 'This guy here is the bassist'). Else, the system doesn't allow you to do so. But I agree, we could add something explaining what it's meant to be in either FAQ or Rules.

Member
Joined: 01.04.2015

yes. it can be even link to FAQ, because some people (like me or Igeethecat) didn't know what we could do with it - so we didn't use it)
and bit more explanation will encourage users (i hope) to use it.
thank you!

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

Link to that section of FAQ, great idea. Explanation + specific example to illustrate intent, great idea, like Gwen Stefani and No Doubt, or whatever examples seem best to you from your international perspective.

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

While everyone is creating their checklist of details to consider in making final decisions, please note that currently, the artist's video appears underneath the video referenced in submitter's comments. I think for now I'll transfer both versions into submitter's comments and not use the video URL field at all.

The following is a bad example, but so you can see what I'm talking about. - https://lyricstranslate.com/en/swell-season-and-healing-has-begun-lyrics...

I was going to enter the movie lyrics and movie clip because I've created a collection for the OST music in the Irish movie Once. But then I noticed that Van Morrison was the original. I checked, no one has uploaded any version of this song. I suspected the lyrics would be the same, and so added the Van Morrison video to the submitter's comments. At that time I listened to Van Morrison to make sure the lyrics match. It turns out they have several variations, so the Van Morrison version should probably have its own page. I haven't decided if I should remove the Van Morrison video from the Swell Season page.

But let's say for discussion's sake that both versions had the exact, word-for-word lyrics. Please notice that the submitter's comments video is positioned above the video URL field video. As I said, I can just put both into the submitter's comments to reverse the positioning (right? - not breaking a rule or creating an issue?)

BUT

If videos are added to the "also performed by" feature, as Sciera suggested, please consider to make sure the first, most prominent video matches the artist under which the song is listed.

Member
Joined: 31.08.2018

Sorry, I had my page resized, so the computer crammed the videos as described above. Once I maximized the window, the videos appeared as they should have.

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