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دوش آگهی ز یارِ سفر کرده داد باد • دیوان حافظ - غزلیات | Divān-e Hafez - Ghazaliyāt #192
دوش آگهی ز یارِ سفر کرده داد باد lyrics
- دوش:
دیشب
- بی حفاظ:
بیغیرت، بیشرم، بیحیا
- مألوف:
خو گرفته
- روانِ ناصحِ ما:
کسانی که ما را نصیحت میدادند
- بندِ قبایِ غنچۀ گُل می گشاد:
به یادِ بندِ قبا گشودن تو میافتادم
- کامت برآورد:
به مرادِ دلت رساند
- نیکو نهاد:
پاکسرشت
- بی حفاظ:
بدون ستر، بدون پرده
see
https://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/%D8%A8%DB%8C+%D8%AD%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B8
Thanks! ❤ | ||
thanked 6 times |
Thanks Details:
User | Time ago |
---|---|
All Promete | 2 years 2 weeks |
Stormy Night | 2 years 10 months |
Megurine Luka | 2 years 10 months |
iax | 2 years 10 months |
Radu Robert | 2 years 11 months |
art_mhz2003 | 3 years 8 months |
1. | هر چه بادا باد |
در چینِ طرّۀ تو دلِ بی حفاظ من / هرگز نگفت مسکنِ مألوف یاد باد
در چین و خمِ طره تو این دلِ غیرت من هرگز نگفت که وطن اصلی من کجاست یعنی از وطنِ اصلی خود هیچ یاد نکرد.
منبع: شرح سودی بر حافظ – جلد دوم – ترجمۀ عصمت ستارزاده – انتشارات نگاه
بیحفاظ: حقناشناس، بیمروت، ناسپاس، نمكبهحرام
منبع: شرح جلالی بر حافظ – دکتر عبدالحسین جلالی
Dehkhoda dictionary, the gold standard in Persian language.gives this primary meaning of that term in that very couplet, here, by the late Ali-Akbar_Dehkhoda, prominent Iranian linguist and lexicographer.
Dehkhoda dictionary escribió:بی حفاظ. [ ح ِ ] (ص مرکب ) بدون ستر.بدون پرده . || بی شرم . بی حیا :
در چین طره ٔ تو دل بی حفاظ من
هرگز نگفت مسکن مألوف یاد باد.
حافظ.|| بی چادر و روی پوش (زن ). (یادداشت بخط مؤلف ). || بی عفت :
یکی بدرگ و بی حفاظ است سخت
ندانم که کشته ست چونین درخت .
شمسی (یوسف و زلیخا).|| بی پرهیز. (یادداشت بخط مؤلف ).
As very obvious from the quote,The meaning provided is a specific reasonable meaning for that term in that specific couplet (the first and primary meaning). FYI, in old Muslim countries, women who don't have cover(Hijab or veil) in public, were considered lacking honor and dignity (the same issue of cover and Hijab still present in some Muslim countries) which could have given you the impression of the figurative, 'halo' meaning of 'indecency' for the term.
Sorry, but you seem to be in denial. You are welcome to your opinion. However, as stated previously, I'm not interested. That's all from me.
We are discussing a poem and its meanings. We will let you know if we need your help
Thanks for the kind concern [@esraa.].
This user put some comments about a sourced annotation I put on a poem of Hafiz, the Persian poet, here. He doesn't like the annotation. I gave him the courtesy of a reasoning and substantiation in an answer and rested my case.
That's not a good manner to keep editing your comments after the other side leave there. Your sourced annotation was incomplete. This was your annotation:
بدون ستر، بدون پرده
https://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/%D8%A8%DB%8C+%D8%AD%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B8
While the complete source is:
بی حفاظ. [ ح ِ ] (ص مرکب ) بدون ستر.بدون پرده . || بی شرم . بی حیا
https://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/%D8%A8%DB%8C+%D8%AD%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B8
If you want to add your sourced annotation add it completely. Thanks
Then please bring the complete source and not the incomplete in order not misleading. However bring them all is not correct, and the meaning you've brought misleads others. Other persian editors can confirm and say their opinion that only "بیشرم و بیحیا" is correct.
The complete:
بی حفاظ.
[حِ] (ص مرکب) بدون ستر. بدون پرده. || بی شرم. بی حیا :
در چین طرهء تو دل بی حفاظ من
هرگز نگفت مسکن مألوف یاد باد.حافظ.
|| بی چادر و روی پوش (زن). (یادداشت بخط مؤلف). || بی عفت :
یکی بدرگ و بی حفاظ است سخت
ندانم که کشته ست چونین درخت.
شمسی (یوسف و زلیخا).
|| بی پرهیز. (یادداشت بخط مؤلف).
https://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/%D8%A8%DB%8C+%D8%AD%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B8
I said that I did not know Persian before. I don't know how this argument will be resolved, but you should both try to understand each other in a slightly more polite tone.
We should take the opinion of other editors who are native Persian on this subject.
[@Stormy Night] [@Fantasy] [@saeedgnu] [@Hama Azhi]
Hi everyone.
Since there's no way to be a hundred percent certain of what the poet has actually had in mind, I think one should be free to express their interpretation and view on specific terms. Moreover, it is possible to add more than one annotation to a word/term. So I think we should leave the desicion to the translators to choose the one they find more accurate.
[@Stormy Night] Thank you for your comment.
This is not a good reason to say that because we are not sure about the meaning of the poet, we cannot say what the words they used mean. We can recognize the apparent meaning of words. I don't t mean imaginary or mystical interpretations.
For example, Dehkhoda in his dictionary has brought several meanings for the word "هوا":
Dehkhoda has brought this poem as a example for "هوا" that means "love":
بی هوای تو نیست هیچ دلی
بی ثنای تو نیست هیچ سری
So can one write an annotation that "هوا" here means the "air", so the poem means:
"بی باد تو نیست هیچ دلی"?!
Or in this poetry:
دیدی که یار جز سَرِ جور و ستم نداشت
بشکست عهد وز غم ما هیچ غم نداشت
Dehkhoda brought this poem as an example for the word "سَر", which means "intention and decision". So can one write an annotation for the word "سَر" that here means "head" and the the poem means:
"دیدی که یار جز کَلّهی ظلم و ستم نداشت"
or because one of the meanings of "سَر" is "horse", write an annotation that that means "horse"?!
And when they are asked why? According to you, they would say "we can not be sure what the poet means; While this is not correct.
Of course, everyone can have their own translation, but is it correct to annotate the original lyrics incorrectly? I don't think so.
They have given a source meaning, but they has been misunderstood. In Dehkhoda dictionary, different meanings of words have been separeted with the sign ||
In the word in question, we also see that five meanings are mentioned and separeted with ||. Dehkhoda has brought that poem as an example for the second meaning which is "بیشرم و بیحیا".
Also, when one adds the link as a source, it means that they have mentioned exactly what is mentioned in the source; As we can see, it is different from the source.
In addition to Dehkhoda's dictionary, I cite a few other sources for more clarification:
#1- بدون ستر. بدون پرده
#2- بیشرم . بیحیا:
در چین طرهی تو دل بیحفاظ من
هرگز نگفت مسکن مألوف یاد باد
#3- بی چادر و روی پوش (زن ). (یادداشت بخط مؤلف )
#4- بی عفت :
یکی بدرگ و بیحفاظ است سخت
ندانم که کشتهست چونین درخت
#5- بیپرهیز (یادداشت بخط مؤلف ).
منبع: لغتنامهی دهخدا، حرف ب، جلد ۲
دل ناسپاس من در چین و شکن زلف تو چنان جا خوش کرده که هرگز به یاد جایگاهی که با آن الفت داشته نمیافتد.
دل بیحفاظ: دلی که به قیود اخلاقی مقید نیست و در تعهد هرکس قرار میگیرد.
منبع: دکتر حسینعلی هروی، شرح غزلهای حافظ، ص ۴۳۸
در چین و خم طُرّهی تو، این دل بیغیرت من، هرگز نگفت وطن اصلی من کجاست، یعنی از وطن اصلی خود هیچ یاد نکرد.
منبع: محمد سودى بوسنوى، ص ۶۶۷
دلیل اهمیت این شرح به آن است که قصد شارح فقط توضیح معانی لغوی و ظاهری بوده است و بهاینترتیب، از هر نوع تفسیرهای وهمی و تمثیلی، خودداری نموده و سعی نکرده است که برای ابیات، معانی مشکل و یا معانی عرفانی بیاورد.
دل حقناشناس بیملاحظهی من در شکنج زلف تابدار تو جا خوش کرده و هرگز یادی از جایگاه اصلی خود نمیکند.
بیحفاظ: حقناشناس، بیمروت، ناسپاس، نمکبهحرام
منبع: عبدالحسین جلالی، شرح جلالی، ص ۵۹۹
You're welcome
I would completely agree with you if only one annotation was allowed for a term. What I'm saying is a translator who speaks and understands Persian is obviously able to think and choose the more accurate option.
I think you do have a point about having to provide the best and closest possible meanings whatsoever, but I think the examples you have given and the meaning provided by bluebird are not very comparable, as his meaning isn't 100 percent unlikely as the examples above. Or just because his meaning is not mentioned anywhere doesn't make it completely wrong. So while I agree with you on the most likely meaning that was intended here (بیشرم/بیحیا), I can't dismiss his meaning as absolutely wrong either.
This is of course only my humble opinion and I hope more Persian users say what they think as well.
باید این را در نظر داشت که صرف تواناییِ فهمیدن فارسی و توانایی ترجمهی فارسی به انگلیسی، به آن معنی نیست که شخص قادر است معنیِ اشعار شاعران بزرگ چون حافظ و مولانا را بفهمد. گروههای ادبی را دیدهام که روزانه یک یا چند بیت از مولانا را میگذارند و بهصورت چهارگزینهای امتحان میگیرند. باید بگویم که تعداد جوابهای اشتباه کم نیستند.
فهم اشعار شاعران بزرگ نیازمند تحقیق است.
اما نکتهی اصلی اینجاست که در واقع، برداشت آن معنیِ اول از آن کلمه براساس معنیای است که در لغتنامهی دهخدا ذکر شدهاست. همانطور که گفتم، دهخدا پنج معنی را برای آن کلمه ذکر کرده و آنها با علامت || از هم جدا شدهاند. و آن شعر شاهدمثال است برای معنیِ دوم.
اگر کسانی آنچه را که جمهور مفسران ذکر کردهاند را نمیخواهند برگزینند و از معنای بدیع و جدیدی میخواهند استفاده کنند، بهتر است آن را در ترجمهی خود منعکس کنند. و اگر خیلی اصرار دارند که آن معنی جدید را در حاشیه ذکر کنند، لینک سایت دهخدا را نگذارند. ذکر لینک یعنی من دقیقاً آنچه را در منبع ذکر شده آوردهام. بهجای آن بگویند نظر شخصی من این است یا حداقل خالی بگذارند. ذکر لینک در آنجا، در واقع، انتساب چیزی به دهخداست که ایشان نگفتهاند؛ که درست نیست.، زیرا ایشان شعر حافظ را ذیل معنای دوم آوردهاند.
Cita:اگر کسانی آنچه را که جمهور مفسران ذکر کردهاند را نمیخواهند برگزینند و از معنای بدیع و جدیدی میخواهند استفاده کنند، بهتر است آن را در ترجمهی خود منعکس کنند. و اگر خیلی اصرار دارند که آن معنی جدید را در حاشیه ذکر کنند، لینک سایت دهخدا را نگذارند. ذکر لینک یعنی من دقیقاً آنچه را در منبع ذکر شده آوردهام. بهجای آن بگویند نظر شخصی من این است یا حداقل خالی بگذارند. ذکر لینک در آنجا، در واقع، انتساب چیزی به دهخداست که ایشان نگفتهاند؛ که درست نیست.، زیرا ایشان شعر حافظ را ذیل معنای دوم آوردهاند..
.درسته، حرفتون منطقیه
I write this comment as a literature teacher;
Poetry is personal. Poetry can give a different meaning to each reader. Our mood and emotional state when we read that poem affect how we understand it. And only the poet can know what the real meaning of the poem is. Everyone thinks their opinion is correct.
And for such old poems these debates can go on forever.
In order to understand poems, it is necessary to know the use of language at that time, the environment of the poet, the life of the poet and many other things.
I am not a stranger to Iranian Literature (you know my love for Mevlana), I have been to Iran many times. I know Hafez Shirazi as well, but frankly I have not read his poems much.
I think you should leave these discussions and accept that there may be different opinions. These differences make poetry beautiful
The main point in this case is that they've mentioned a source (Dehkhoda Dictionary) in the annotation, but in that source, five meanings are mentioned for the mentioned word and the author had put that poem exactly under one of the other meanings (the second meaning), which Most other commentators have given that meaning or meanings close to it.
When they bring the link, they should mention exactly what is mentioned in the source without change. But unlike the author (Dehkhoda), he has given another meaning other than that chosen by the author. It's okay if they want choose another meaning, but mentioning the link is attributing something to the author that he hasn't said, and this is not correct.
Sounds like there are several interpretations for a phrase.
That can happen in poetry, even among experts (let alone merely native Persian speakers like me that are not specialized in poetry).
If Lyrics annotation is used like this, I think we should include all interpretations (from recognized/reliable sources) and let the reader or translator decide which one makes more sense.
No reason to argue about it.
Amin Bani Blues, Pop | |
Arash Dance, Folk, Hip-Hop/Rap | |
Farya Faraji Folk, Neofolk | |
Mohsen Yeganeh Pop | |
Mohsen Namjoo Rock, Folk | |
Morteza Pashaei Pop | |
Googoosh Pop |
حافظ نهادِ نیکِ تو کامت برآورد
جانها فدایِ مردمِ نیکو نهاد باد
more than beautiful ...
*heart* *heart* *heart* *heart* *heart*