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Translating without Judging

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Member
<a href="/es/translator/almitra" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432222">Almitra</a>
Se unió: 01.09.2019

D, as you may have noticed, I'm all about the bigger picture. It's not that important what itsy-bitsy political point someone is trying to make, it is infinitely more important how far they are willing to go to make it. When someone is willing to toy with moral boundaries without second thoughts or reservations, just for fun, just because they can, that's not they kind of person I find appealing. I don't know what your definition of a good person is, but in my book, good people don't spit in other people's faces to prove a point or to see if it gets to them, if it hits them right where it hurts.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/brat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1334845">Brat</a>
Se unió: 13.04.2017

Trying to discover intentions behind actions is a presumably good idea. But my book tells that one could get misled at the process.

Moderator
<a href="/es/translator/aldefina" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1152070">Aldefina</a>
Se unió: 16.01.2013

Let’s summarize:

1. In Wikipedia you can read about Horst-Wessel-Lied. The lyrics and some translations were posted there and nobody complained. That’s why I think this song shouldn’t be a problem here and it should stay.

2. As for me the Site Rules are fine, but the rules for editors and moderators must be changed. They are not compatible wit our Site Rules and that’s unacceptable.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019

Sorry, Aldefina, I have to contradict.

Regarding your point 1: You are right, I have no problem to hear or read the song in queston in a history-book, a documentary or on Wiki. Because I do not like this sort of censorship.

But I really don't want it here on LT!

An example to make it more clear: There are a lot of pornographic-sites on Internet. There are a lot of guys who like that stuff. So when they go to these sites, I have no problem with that as long as it is no danger for the life of other people.

And if I imagine that there will be porno-songs, translations and videos here on LT, I would not feel comfortable and I would go. – I think that should be understandable.

But Nazis are really dangerous! If you still need a proof: look into history!

And regarding some other guys here: Don't distract by saying "Stalin" when this thread is about "Hitler"! - If someone hates a certain white cat it doesn't mean that he loves black cats. – I know this sort of arguments to well, the people who use them are - as far as I know them personally - NAZIS!

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Se unió: 19.07.2018

Al, I learned, with difficulty, that we need all the good people - meaning the ones who recognize right from wrong and choose to do right in their life. It doesn't mean I'm not frustrated when various (strange) ways to get their point across are exhibited. When I say "right," I do not mean right for themselves only. I had a long battle with MZ and it took chunks out of my heart. I could not get much support because people here explicitly told me they don't want political discussions. But songs were, are, and will be the expression of one's views. So, here we are. Sorry for rambling.

Moderator
<a href="/es/translator/aldefina" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1152070">Aldefina</a>
Se unió: 16.01.2013

Vera, you have to understand that we cannot censor songs basing on what some users don’t like. There was a good example with a Hungarian anthem mentioned here. Would you expect us to censor it because some Turks may not like it?

On LT we also have songs that I don’t like, but I never thought about unpublishing them. I was not entitled to do it. The only reason to censor a song is violation of the site rules.

I asked you all to suggest some changes as for the censorship, but so far there are no suggestions. The way we discuss here makes not much sense. We can talk and talk, but we will never come to the final conclusions.

This is my last day on LT this year, ‘cause I will leave for about a month. You have plenty of time to suggest some sound site rules as for the censorship and we can discuss them, but please stop repeating the same things over and over again. We all know them by heart.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019

Dear Aldefina,

You have asked all of us to make suggestions for the website rules. – So here is my idea:

The first existing rule is very elaborated and useful:
"Filthy, offensive, and obscene language and images are prohibited on the site, including usernames and profile pictures.That also extends to offending people based on their nationality, sexual orientation, skin color, religious beliefs, etc. This is a multicultural and multinational website, so respect comes always in first place. No insults are allowed, except for within lyrics."

But maybe the first point of the part "adding content" is too short:

"Lyrics that contain serious hate messages, violence propaganda, racism and aggressive discrimination are prohibited."

Why not write it in this way:

"Lyrics that contain serious hate messages, violence propaganda, racism and aggressive discrimination or are a symbol for extreme forms of that are prohibited."

In that case a Horst-Wessel-Lied would not be published, the Hungarian anthem could remain.
Moreover it does not refer only to songs which are prohibited in Germany. There is really no reason to restrict the rules to Germany.

And regarding songs as "Crusader" everybody can decide by him- or herself whether it is decently to publish it...

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Se unió: 01.07.2018
Vera Jahnke escribió:

I know this sort of arguments to well, the people who use them are - as far as I know them personally - NAZIS!

I personnally don't feel that I am a Nazi, nor a Stalinist, nor a Turkish or Cambodian or Rwandese genocider, I never genocided anybody, yet I am against censorship. And I think that there not bad people on one side and good ones (us, of course) on the other one. History is not black or white, it's much more complex.

lt
Administrator
<a href="/es/translator/lt" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1">lt</a>
Se unió: 27.05.2008
Vera Jahnke schrieb:

1) Who is responsible for this site?

2) In which country this site is located?

3) Why haven't you add publisher's imprint/edition notice to this site?

This website is operated by a team of developers from Ukraine. Site servers are located in Germany.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80-%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365992">Alexander Frei</a>
Se unió: 23.12.2017
lt schrieb:

Site servers are located in Germany.

Da liegt der Hund begraben...

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019

Hi lt,

Thank you very much for this helpful information.

I do not know anything about internet-law, but I found this:

"Meistens gilt das Recht des Senders, wobei der Staat des Empfängers die Sendung von Daten nach dem fremden Recht dann toleriert" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internetrecht)

"Usually the law of the sender applies, whereby the state of the recipient then tolerates the sending of data according to the foreign law"

If this sentence is applicable, then, in my opinion, it should be not possible to publish the "Horst-Wessel-Song" here.

So, in this case, there should be no need in further discussion regarding this topic.

Best regards

Vera

Senior Member
<a href="/es/translator/oophster" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1389037">Iceloot</a>
Se unió: 10.07.2018

In Ukraine you say...Ok. It depends on you whether i shall leave this site once or shall stay. I'll have my eye on you. I'll trace your policy.

Editor - Sculptor of Language
<a href="/es/translator/hansi-klauer" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1249237">Hansi K_Lauer</a>
Se unió: 11.06.2015

Da liegt der Hase im Pfeffer!
Wink smile

Moderator
<a href="/es/translator/aldefina" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1152070">Aldefina</a>
Se unió: 16.01.2013

It's not important who operates the site and where its servers are located. According to my knowledge important is where it's registered.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019

I agree, it is NOT important who operates the site and that really not should lead to any conjectures!

But still the question is open, which law is applicable.

And why they are not more suggestions regarding the website-rules?

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80-%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365992">Alexander Frei</a>
Se unió: 23.12.2017
Aldefina wrote:

It's not important who operates the site and where its servers are located. According to my knowledge important is where it's registered.

Actually we have one important thing... it's for me important at least .

Germans and Russians have one absolutely equal idiom: "Da liegt der Hund begraben=Вот где собака зарыта" (Here’s where the dog is buried).

the big question is: who first buried this poor dog? l mean Russians or Germans used first this interesting idiom?

Moderator
<a href="/es/translator/aldefina" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1152070">Aldefina</a>
Se unió: 16.01.2013

The information you can find e.g. here: https://www.whois.com/whois/lyricstranslate.com or here: https://lyricstranslate.com.websiteoutlook.com/

As you see servers are, as the admins told us, in Germany, but LT is registered in Panama. This way applicable is the law of Panama, which according to the information I found on the net doesn't censor Internet. I hope everything should be clear now.

Editor - Sculptor of Language
<a href="/es/translator/hansi-klauer" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1249237">Hansi K_Lauer</a>
Se unió: 11.06.2015

So we eventually found out that Horst Wessel is behind the "Panama Papers" ...
(... and Jean-Claude Juncker is his illegitimate grandson!)
Omg smile

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Se unió: 01.07.2018

"Hic jacet lepus", in Latin. (=Here lies the hare). Regular smile
 

Member
<a href="/es/translator/almitra" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432222">Almitra</a>
Se unió: 01.09.2019
Alexander Frei schrieb:
Aldefina schrieb:

It's not important who operates the site and where its servers are located. According to my knowledge important is where it's registered.

Actually we have one important thing... it's for me important at least .

Germans and Russians have one absolutely equal idiom: "Da liegt der Hund begraben=Вот где собака зарыта" (Here’s where the dog is buried).

the big question is: who first buried this poor dog? l mean Russians or Germans used first this interesting idiom?

Stop with your nationalist agenda already, okay? You've been painfully obvious about your leanings, so no need to beat the dead horse. In your case, I'd suggest thinking on the following Russian idiom: no matter what the topic is, the one with lice keeps talking about sauna. So keep your smarty-pants nationalist trolling to yourself. Your shtick is getting stale.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80-%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365992">Alexander Frei</a>
Se unió: 23.12.2017
Alexander Frei wrote:

Stop with your nationalist agenda already, okay? You've been painfully obvious about your leanings, so no need to beat the dead horse. In your case, I'd suggest thinking on the following Russian idiom: no matter what the topic is, the one with lice keeps talking about sauna. So keep your smarty-pants nationalist trolling to yourself. Your shtick is getting stale.

Interesting! You said that Jadis is a "bad person", now you say that l am a "nationalist" Devil smile

And why you think so? Teeth smile

Did you found more "bad guys" and "nationalists"?

Member
<a href="/es/translator/almitra" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432222">Almitra</a>
Se unió: 01.09.2019

You have mistaken my commentary for an attempt to feed a troll. No, it was intended to let the troll know their shtick is getting old. And you can play your little games to your heart's content, I don't care. The way I see it, whatever controversial trash is floating around, you seem to be around. Coincidence? Who knows. As for good people, there are plenty of them on this platform. Anyway, I'm not interested in your trolling, and if you fail to see the obvious, I suggest you visit an eye clinic called Ñahui in the Comas district of Lima.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80-%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365992">Alexander Frei</a>
Se unió: 23.12.2017

Okay, l will not use Ad homineim or laber everything like you - l have on my page poems and link of my facebook, I'm an open person https://lyricstranslate.com/ru/translator/%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81...
But l'm not very social as you can see on my facebook page Sad smile

If you have the wolf in your picture, then you are definetly an open and kind person! Wink smile

"Coincidence? Who knows"

Киселевщина прямо Regular smile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGNbuOdi_oU

"So keep your smarty-pants nationalist trolling"

l am not a nationalist and l can't be:
1)I was born in Uzbekistan like my mother and my father is russian. Now l live in Russia. Russia have many nationalists. For example here is okay when people write: "Our rent apartmen is located in the center of Moskow. The apartment only for slavs". I was moving like 17 times and l know what I'm talking about. And l am only 21 by the way.

2)Russian nationalists call me "полукровка" (half-blood) or just "чурка" (chinks)

If you want somebody insult (me and Jadis are not first and not last), then please do it in another place or just don't do it anymore.

Good day to you. End of discussion with you.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019

Sometimes, if some "guys" have suffered a defeat, they go to "Nahui" (Peru) to regain their "power"... 😉
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=bUA2BsK%2f&id=D8ED...

A. Huli is a very interesting name with many meanings, and the first letters are A and H, by the way...

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Se unió: 01.07.2018
Almitra napisał:

I don't know what your definition of a good person is, but in my book, good people don't spit in other people's faces to prove a point or to see if it gets to them, if it hits them right where it hurts.

Regular smile
I also noticed that usually, people defining themselves as humanists, great lesson givers about morality and so on, turn out to be the more intolerant as soon as they must face arguments that don't agree them.
 
For instance, everybody claims to be a staunch defender of universal suffrage, but when the result is an Orban or a Bolsonaro (let's forget about Trump, because in the USA they have a different system), then they spit their rage to the face of the world. People not only should go and vote (because otherwise they would be bad citizens), but they should also vote properly, meaning : as we (strongly) suggested them do to. That Hitler was initially elected by the German people, for instance, is an absolutely unbearable thought to them.
 
So, having nothing more to say, they exclaim : "Let's forbid ! Let's censore ! Let's send the opponents to jail ! They're all fascists!" They say so in the name of humanism and tolerance, of course. Regular smile
 
(As to lgeethecat, who supposes we stupid French people can't see the difference between loving one's country and propaganda, I'm sure that she appreciated  Мы идем широкими полями  :
« Приходи и ты к нам в полк, товарищ, Если любишь родину, как мы. »
(Vlassov said he loved his country – Russia – but this is impossible of course, because he was on the wrong side. That's why they hanged him).

Member
<a href="/es/translator/almitra" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432222">Almitra</a>
Se unió: 01.09.2019

Now you're talking like a normal human being, instead of trolling. Which is why I am going to answer.

1. My last sentence was not an ad hominem attack. It was my successful attempt to show you that you're not the only one who can play "clever" word games, Mr Fox. It's successful because the very fact that you've interpreted the sentence as an insult shows you how easy it is to see through those games, including the one with your offensive avatar.

2. I don't judge people based on their nationality, race, etc. When I'm talking to a person, I'm talking to a person, not a representative of a random group. Which is why I don't like it when people drag nationalities into convos for no good reason.

3. Considering your background, defending Nazi songs and those of their collaborators is the last thing you should be doing. They wouldn't spare you, or me for that matter. I'll be damned before I defend anything related to those directly responsible for the tragic events in my family's history.

4. As for "киселевщина", just because some people turned a few words into a meme, doesn't mean someone else saying those words is quoting the one they are attributed to. I don't even have a TV, so yeah.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Se unió: 19.07.2018

Alex, sometimes I really don't get what you are trying to get across.

Almitra, like Jadis, are good people with clearly good intentions. Jadis referred to the memorial to Dzerzhinsky, but that link clearly states that uncounted people were murdered in god knows what purpose. So censorship is bad, but is singing along to Nazi hymn better?

The only reason I am continuing this discussion, is the event yesterday in US. We have a store chain in US, Hobby Lobby, great friends of Trump, outspoken "Christian" speakers concerned greatly with preventing women abortion rights.

Company in the store and headquarters told customers asking about Hanukkah gifts, actually of their absence, "we don't cater to you people" and "Hanukkah is not on our holiday list." So if we don't face our objections, they will soon do singalong the Nazi hymn in US in 2020!

Member
<a href="/es/translator/almitra" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432222">Almitra</a>
Se unió: 01.09.2019

Actually, you were the one who brought up censorship (show me a comment of mine where I say that we need to censor something). I was talking about responsibility and the need for careful consideration when choosing a text to translate. Then you defeated the straw-man you'd built and proceeded to provoke in the name of freedom. And you came here to brag how you showed those 'Stalinitsts' what's what. You didn't care who else, besides Stalinists, might be offended by your demonstration. Any means to an end, right? And have you read the comment you added to your translation? If I didn't know better, I would think you believe the Nazi collaborator in question was a poor victim of the Soviets. The final sentence of the comment I'm responding to also expresses that sentiment. FYI, people who love their country, don't work for those who are killing it's people by the millions. Vlasov did, while many before him, including those who hated the Soviets with passion, refused to do so.

Moderator of most things Romanic
<a href="/es/translator/knee427" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Se unió: 05.04.2012

NOTE TO USERS
Again, please be respectful and polite even when disagreeing - else this thread might be closed. And we all know that this is not what we want.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019

Nicolas Cage said in the movie "Lord of War": "When the Good fights, it is not good any longer, if the Good does not fight, it will lose – so it will lose always."

Every fundamental-"ist" thinks to possess the "absolute truth" and censors the others.

In Russia there is a proverb: "The good must have fists". – Although I am not in favour of this, I think we need a "wehrhafte Demokratie" (a democracy, which is able to defend itself), so there is a need to censor the censors. Look at Weimar! That is our very own experience.

I am not interested in "left" or "right", I am not interested, who has killed more people by numbers, Hitler or Stalin, because every single killed person is one killed person too much.

But I am interested in which sort of society I will life in future, and LT is part of this society.

And yes! – Please do not always distract by talking about "Hitler" and "Stalin": Hitler was elected! And now he becomes a "fetish" of our desires and of our guilt.

I am convinced: If there had been elections in 1939, a huge majority would have voted for the Nazis.
So, if I am interested in history, I would not listen to Horst-Wessel-Songs day and night, but examine the role of the people which make guys like "Hitler" and "Stalin" possible. People like us.

Hic jacet lepus/ Вот где собака зарыта/Da liegt der Hase im Pfeffer.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80-%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365992">Alexander Frei</a>
Se unió: 23.12.2017
Almitra wrote:

It was my successful attempt to show you that you're not the only one who can play "clever" word games, Mr Fox..

I see nothing clever in your aggression, you just insulted me and then said that it's was your smart move. Then you said: "you have to do this and this". And now there's a chance that this discussion will be closed.

If you want something to say, then don't insult , use arguments, not just thesis and l will read it and l will maybe agree with you

Хули = 狐狸

"I don't judge people based on their nationality, race, etc. "

It's great. Now dont judge people who disagree with you

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80-%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365992">Alexander Frei</a>
Se unió: 23.12.2017
Vera Jahnke wrote:

Look at Weimar! That is our very own experience.

But Vera, you know that the biggest ground of nazi's popularity was bad economy, not because Germany has "too weak censorship".

Check the rating stats: nazis become popular in Hyperinflation (1919-1923 and it was unprecedented economic crisis in whole history), after economic recovery they become unpopular, then they become again popular in Great Depression (1929-1939).

Fascists become popular in Österreich too, when there unemployment has worsened and in 1934 they won

Member
<a href="/es/translator/almitra" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432222">Almitra</a>
Se unió: 01.09.2019

Again with your games. Some people never learn. Well, troll it is.

Member
<a href="/es/translator/almitra" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432222">Almitra</a>
Se unió: 01.09.2019

You're right, D. This discussion is going nowhere and breeds nothing positive. I'll stop now.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Se unió: 01.07.2018

I think you are at least partly right. But it looks fashionable to always cry over the consequences, without ever wondering about the causes.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Se unió: 19.07.2018

No economic issue should drive anyone to gas, torture, burry people alive. Hence, we were against the singable Nazi hymn.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/brat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1334845">Brat</a>
Se unió: 13.04.2017
Almitra escribió:

I'd suggest thinking on the following Russian idiom: no matter what the topic is, the one with lice keeps talking about sauna.

Well put.
I've been told that Finns often talk about sauna. Whether I believe that or not, it doesn't draw me to a conclusion that they all are infested with lice. That's probably due to my way of thinking...

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019

Yes, and as long as mankind is not able to solve all these economical, ecological and social problems, which are the soil on which extreme political parties grow – until that point we need some other tools to stop this growing.

Another example for to set the right priorities:
First, you have to pull the refugees out of the water, and THEN you can solve all the problems in Africa (if possible!).

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80-%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365992">Alexander Frei</a>
Se unió: 23.12.2017
Jadis schrieb:

I think you are at least partly right. But it looks fashionable to always cry over the consequences, without ever wondering about the causes.

Because it's simple! Regular smile

l think the only problem is that many people think one idea stop to exist, if form of this idea is forbidden. And this illusion is very pleasant.

But the reason for the existence continue to exist, so people who love this idea will call themself not "nazis" or "fascists" (if they are not stupid), because it's forbidden - they call themself somehow different... democrats for example and they will be popular and have support of their people.

=======

Interesting thing for those who like classical philosophy:

The book "Rhetoric" of Aristotle says that purpose of democracy is freedom and purpose of tyranny is protection.

Which protection doesn't matter - protection against "Сommunistis from Russia" or against "Nazis from Germany" or against "ISIS from Asia".

Nazis by the way said many times about "protection against bolsheviks" and "protection against jews"...

Somebody here said about protection against another group of people, as far as I can see...

Again protection and again censorship...

"Nothing really change" as l said. And l'm not the first who said it. How l said: "Nothing really change"

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019

Dear Alexander, so would you agree to what Nicolas Cage said in the movie "Lord of War": "When the Good fights, it is not good any longer, if the Good does not fight, it will lose – so it will lose always."?

👉 Do you want that?

👉 If not, what can we do?

You know that it is not possible to solve our worldwide problems in the near future!

By the way, there is an interesting psychological effect that some people, who were hurt very deeply by other people, support these people afterwards. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome)

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/brat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1334845">Brat</a>
Se unió: 13.04.2017

Well, I am going to tell you one clever-clever idea, but don't you take umbrage at my ranting.
What are lyrics? They are text.
What is text? It's information.
What's information? It may be an instruction.
So, what do we have?
First of all, we have a problem. Well, there are actually a huge lot of problems in our everyday life but let's take a kinda big PROBLEM into consideration.
Let's imagine we're in Weimar Republic now.
The main problem is that there are many wealthy Jews and a lot of poor Germans. (In fact, there are also a lot of poor Jews and many wealthy Germans, but that's not a problem since we're are living in GERMANY).
We want to solve the problem, of course.
What are the possible solutions?
1. To provide the poor German people with jobs so that they could earn enough money and become less poor.
2. To introduce new taxes aiming to take some money from the richest Jews and then pass it to the poorest Germans.
3. To expropriate money and other property from the rich Jews and pass it to the poor Germans.
4. To kill all the Jews (in addition to #3 option so that they wouldn't consume resources anymore, and none of them would ever become rich thus reviving the problem again) - the ultimate solution.
What could be our choice then?
Well, any option, if we are staunch enough.
And what makes us staunch? - Our views, creeds, and convictions.
Could a text influence these? - With no doubt.
If a cute haunting song by a talented author telling to kill all these Yids appears at the right moment - it can surely influence the crowd.
Were such a song born in an inappropriate moment - it would be of no fatal effect, although it might still arise anxiety and disgust.
Considering the above said, it becomes obvious when we should censor such texts - absolutely - and when it's not necessary (provided that censoring is applied mostly to prevent violence).
At least, it clears up the fact that each contry should form the lists of forbidden texts with regard to the lists of the actual problems persisting in the respective countries.
The choice of problems is a problem itself, though...
But there lies the real field for arguing.
And my point is the following.
Let the Germans decide what is good for Germany, and the Russians choose what should be banned in Russia, and the same thing for the USA and other countries. And let it be the way where no coutry would thrust its will upon any other one (or a group of), whether there could be any 'good' reasons to do so or not.
And let the site administration elaborate a kind of appropriate rule that would satisfy the majority of its sound members.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019
Brat wrote:

1) Let the Germans decide what is good for Germany, and the Russians choose what should be banned in Russia, and the same thing for the USA and other countries... 2) And let the site administration elaborate a kind of appropriate rule that would satisfy the majority of its sound members.

1) How do you want to realise that on internet?

2) Good idea, but not very democratically. Especially after Aldefina asked us for suggestions in his comment #111:

Aldefina wrote:

You have plenty of time to suggest some sound site rules as for the censorship and we can discuss them...

I have already done it, please see my comment #112.

Do you or anyone else have any suggestion, which would be applicable?

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Se unió: 01.07.2018
Vera Jahnke wrote:

Another example for to set the right priorities:
First, you have to pull the refugees out of the water, and THEN you can solve all the problems in Africa (if possible!).

But perhaps the right way to do would have been : FIRST you make sure they won't wade in the water, when they could be safe and dry at home, and THEN you ask yourself : oh, what shall we do with them now ? Because the fact that they're wading in the water is a consequence. Because when the ship is sinking, it doesn't help much to bring a few more hundreds drowning people aboard. (And you may even ask yourself : how much did they pay each to the smugglers, where did this money com from, and couldn't they find a better use for it in their own country ?)

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80-%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365992">Alexander Frei</a>
Se unió: 23.12.2017

Just a quote:

"Denn was jeder einzelne will, wird von jedem andern verhindert, und was herauskommt, ist etwas, das keiner gewollt hat" -Engels an Joseph Bloch in Königsberg, 21. September 1890.

"То, чего хочет один, встречает противодействие со стороны всякого другого, и в конечном результате появляется нечто такое, чего никто не хотел"

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D1%8D%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%8B-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1367314">Equirythmystica</a>
Se unió: 05.01.2018

Может тогда запретить и Einheitsfrontlied? Все признаки экстримизма на лицо.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019

No more suggestions regarding the site rules? - Really?

That makes me so sad...

This wonderful option Aldefina granted us – Democracy: close enough to touch... a beautiful dream!

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80-%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365992">Alexander Frei</a>
Se unió: 23.12.2017
Vera Jahnke wrote:

No more suggestions regarding the site rules? - Really?

When l asked you: "Why "Mein Kampf" is not forbidden in Germany?"
You answered: "Mein Kampf wird nur in kommentierter Form herausgegeben und das ist sinnvoll, weil es der Aufklärung dient"

Maybe we could publish Horst Wessel Song on LT but with some comments about this song too, just like it was with "Mein Kampf" in Germany? Wikipidea have Horst Wessel song on 42 languages here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst-Wessel-Lied and all the peoples of the world who have internet use Wikipedia much more, than LT.

No need to say: "if on LT Horst Wessel Song is legal, then nazis seize power and then we will eat human meat" (seestern) or "you are a troll if you disagree with me" (exaggeration) or "Look at Weimar! That is our very own experience. We need more censorship".

Guys, it's Internet and you can't burn it like a book. Роскомнадзор (Roskomnadzor) will confirm that - https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BD... When they tried to block Rutracker.org, they faild, because we now use this App, bypassing their defenses against "something bad": https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83...

Here's a battle between facts and emotions... Choose your side

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019
Jadis schrieb:

But perhaps the right way to do would have been : FIRST you make sure they won't wade in the water, when they could be safe and dry at home, and THEN you ask yourself : oh, what shall we do with them now ?

If we divide the time-line into parts, we will get three of it:
The Past: We all have not improved a bad situation ("Weimar", "Africa"). > We CANNOT change the past!
The Present: There are bad effects ("refugees", "Nazis"). > We can do something good now ("first aid")!
The Future: We all can do our utmost to improve the bad things. > If we don't want the bad effects any longer, we should do so!

Alexander Frei schrieb:

The book "Rhetoric" of Aristotle says that purpose of democracy is freedom and purpose of tyranny is protection.

Aristoteles has also said the following: "The best form of government is royalty." – He said a lot of things...

But regarding the purpose of tyranny, I think, yes, maybe it is protection, but not the protection of life of all mankind, but protection of their own power.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/vera-jahnke" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1416993">Vera Jahnke</a>
Se unió: 30.03.2019
A. Huli schrieb:

then nazis seize power and then we will eat human meat" (seestern)... ... or "Look at Weimar! That is our very own experience. We need more censorship" (Vera Janke).

A. Huli (you have asked for changing your user-name, and I do accept that – if you really like this "name"):

Don't tell lies here by quoting wrong!

Seestern has never said that, he said that the sentence: "We cannot stop Nazis – so allow their propaganda-songs, too." is similar to: "We cannot stop people to eat meat – so allow them cannibalism." – And I think that it is a very good example: If you cannot stop something bad, it would be completely stupid to allow something even worse.

And my exact words were:
"so there is a need to censor the censors. Look at Weimar! That is our very own experience." (#135)

For more, please see my comments #33, 47, 65, 71, 109, 112, 135, 143!

And in case you should have misunderstood me, I repeat:

"I stand for as much liberty as possible, but sometimes we need rules, until we have solve our problems."

What I want is, to ban Nazi-Propaganda from LT, but not to censor it, if it is embedded in a historical context! – And LT is NOT a history-forum.

And now, I am really upset with your sort of unfair and wrong argumentation. So I stop to write to you now, A. Huli. Maybe there were good reasons to choose this name!

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/%D1%8D%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%8B-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1367314">Equirythmystica</a>
Se unió: 05.01.2018

Any text is propaganda. And songs. Whether we like it or not. But that's not an argument for a ban.

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