[CLOSED] [SOLVED] Adding a country to the countries of the poet

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Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/khorasani" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499756">Khorasani</a>
Se unió: 06.05.2021
Pending moderation

Hello
In Rumi's page here (I couldn't add the link, please search), in the country section, only "Iran" has been selected for him, but "Afghanistan" as his birthplace should be added as well.
On the English Wikipedia, no country has been chosen for him, but only he is mentioned as a Persian poet and Persians are in both Iran and Afghanistan.
However, I am not opposed to "Iran" being in Rumi's countries, but "Afghanistan" as Rumi's birthplace should definitely be added.

Editor
<a href="/es/translator/ahmad-aziz" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1320850">ahmad aziz</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2016

At the moment, I think only one country can be added to artist's page. Tagging [@lt] here so they can check if it's possible to expand it.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

Then let's add Turkey as the country where he spent most of his life and died?

Editor in search of Anningan & Malina
<a href="/es/translator/anerneq" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1112972">Anerneq</a>
Se unió: 10.05.2012
esraa. wrote:

Then let's add Turkey as the country where he spent most of his life and died?

Sorry, but if that is the case, we should add "Italy" to Percy Shelley and "France" to Petrarca.

I think we need guidelines on what the "country" field is supposed to represent for poets. For singers, it usually is their country of birth or the one they sell their music to (which is the same 98% of the times). In the case of poets it gets trickier, especially if we consider that such old poets were born and used to live in countries that don't even exist anymore.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

Yes, I think the same as you, but I don't think Afghanistan should be added just because he was born in Afghanistan. The important thing is where is the place that shaped the life of that poet.

Nazım Hikmet, for example, was born in the city of Thessaloniki, which was then Ottoman territory but now belongs to Greece. Can we write Greece to Nazım Hikmet? This can not be.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/ogingero" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1352420">OgingerO</a>
Se unió: 08.09.2017

Can you not just go by the main language one wrote in (and the country that goes with that language - if it's possible to narrow it down that way - I mean not if it was England VS US.. But otherwise...) if there's a confusion and it's clear that the majority of one's works are in one language? I don't have a dog in this fight... but it seems that clearly the language one writes the most in has a lot of influence over the person, it's usually the language they are most comfortable using because it is usually their native language.

Editor in search of Anningan & Malina
<a href="/es/translator/anerneq" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1112972">Anerneq</a>
Se unió: 10.05.2012

I agree, that's why I'm calling for a guideline on the issue.

I personally think poets should be classified under the country to which they gave their contribution. Petrarca lived much of his life in Avignon, where the pope was living. Avignon shaped him both religiously and as a person (he even wrote a poem about the Mount Ventoux), but his works are part of Italian literature, therefore I don't see a strong reason to add "France" to the list of countries for him.

I admit, though, that such approach would not always be easy to implement. In case of Persian literature, it would be unfair to classify everything under Iran, as Persians have lived for centuries in an area bigger than Iran. Also it would be even more complicated for classical literature (thinking of Latin poets in particular.

Let's see what the admins have to say.

Editor in search of Anningan & Malina
<a href="/es/translator/anerneq" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1112972">Anerneq</a>
Se unió: 10.05.2012

We published your comment at the same time, so we pretty much said the same thing.
The trouble with languages is 1) many languages are spoken in more than one country 2) some poets wrote in various languages, but only the works in one specific language are taken into consideration. This is especially true for Medieval European poets who frequently wrote both in Latin and in their native language.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

Rumi wrote most of his poems in Persian, but the place that made Rumi the real Rumi is Konya (currently on the borders of Turkey but it was the Seljuk Empire during his time. And the official language of the Seljuk Empire was Persian. Rumi did not write all his poems in Iran.). You can check it from the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi
And Rumi's name comes from Anatolia (Anatolia's other name is Rum).
I think the place where he lived at that time should be added. This is necessary for many ancient poets.

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/khorasani" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499756">Khorasani</a>
Se unió: 06.05.2021
Anerneq wrote:

In the case of poets it gets trickier, especially if we consider that such old poets were born and used to live in countries that don't even exist anymore.

The same is true for Iran itself, because before 1934 there was no country called Iran, but after the Shah of Iran wrote a letter to other countries that "From now on, call "Persia" "Iran"", before that (1934), Iran was known as a geographical region and not a name of a country.

esraa. wrote:

Yes, I think the same as you, but I don't think Afghanistan should be added just because he was born in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan was not only his birthplace but also his place of growth. Because Rumi's native language is Persian and almost all of his poems were written in Persian. He several times has mentioned His birthplace (Balkh, a city in northern Of Afghanistan) and most people of Iran and Afghanistan And Tajikistan Know him as "Jalal al-din Mohammad Balkhi.)

Rumi:
I'm a Balkhi, I'm a Balkhi, I'm a Balkhi
The whole world is in uproar
Over my bitter-sweetness.
بلخی‌ام من بلخی‌ام من بلخی‌ام
شوری دارد عالمی از تلخی‌ام

My roaring nostalgic cry echoes
From the gate of Rum to Balkh.
My origin never forgets its roots,
You're my Shams, you're my God.
نعرۀ های و هوی من ازدر روم تا به بلخ
اصل کجا خطا کند شمس من و خدای من

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

You should also read the other comments we have written. I will wait for admin to comment on this.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

But the world knows him by the name 'Rumi'. Wink smile

Nazım Hikmet's childhood passed in Thessaloniki, is he Greek? There are many examples like this.

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/khorasani" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499756">Khorasani</a>
Se unió: 06.05.2021

Calling him as Balkhi or Rumi does not change the truth and the place of his birth and growth.

Your example is different.
Greece and Turkey have cultural and linguistic differences.
But the subject of this discussion is about the countries of Iran and Afghanistan, which have a lot in common, such as culture and language.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

You cannot ignore the reality of Turkey or Seljuks here. This is a place where Rumi matures and shapes his thoughts.
By the way, the example I gave is no different. You cannot say that Rumi belongs to you just because he writes in Persian or because he was born there.

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/starry-eyed-0" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1247131">starry eyed</a>
Se unió: 25.05.2015
esraa. wrote:

The important thing is where is the place that shaped the life of that poet

In Rumi's case then, it's the Persian Culture that shaped his life, not the place where he was in.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

I suggest you go and do some research. Just read the wiki. Don't speak without knowing.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

This topic will be discussed among moderators. I close the forum.

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/khorasani" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499756">Khorasani</a>
Se unió: 06.05.2021

Anyway, I don't mean only this poet, but also there are other poets who were born in Afghanistan and grew up there with Persian culture. It is not fair that all Persian poets be under only one country "Iran", while in Afghanistan there is a rich Persian culture and history. And the people there live with the poems of those poets.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Se unió: 19.07.2018

I cannot believe I’m saying it, but Esraa, your tone comes thru belligerent - don’t forget that we aren’t speaking but writing, and thus leave intonation subject to one’s interpretation. You always make sense in your comments, but please consider softening the tone.

And would not a nice detailed comment on poet's page be enough to describe where he was born, raised, shaped, languages and cultures he contributed to? To me, it would be better than divisive claims to whom he belongs - art and poetry should belong to all, no?

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

Hi, thank you for your comment,

I am really tired of telling someones about Rumi. And this is not the first time I have been talking about this topic. Previously, there were those who said that Rumi belongs only to them, but they completely ignore the influence of Mevlana in Turkish culture and literature. (Rumi is a poet who has influenced the whole world in some way, but if I talk about his influence on the Turks, I can write for days.)
But I do not want to offend anyone willingly, I apologize if there is someone I offended, I will be more careful from now on.

And yes I agree with you, artists who have influenced the world like this should have more information on their pages.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020
BlackSea4Ever wrote:

To me, it would be better than divisive claims to whom he belongs - art and poetry should belong to all, no?

Can't agree more [@BlackSea4Ever]. However, the original topic, and not [@Esraa.], might be about whom, or more exactly, 'what country', Rumi 'belongs' to.

First, about the 'country'. LT  as the names implies, is originally about lyrics, which more or less is a contemporary thing. Poetry, esp. old one, are sort of 'extensions'. Checking the artists' pages, it seems to me that it refers to 'nationality' (citizenship), which is a legal or official matter. Maddona is from US, since she holds an American passport, not because she was born in US or sings in English. 

Wikipedia simply used the term 'Nationality' for more recent poets. For Muhammad Iqbal, named as the 'national poet' of Pakistan, the summary info says 

Wikipedia wrote:

Born: Muhammad Iqbal
            9 November 1877
            Sialkot, Punjab, British India            
           (present-day Punjab, Pakistan)

Died:  21 April 1938 (aged 60)
             Lahore, Punjab, British India 
            (present-day Punjab, Pakistan)

Nationality:  British Indian

The nationality is clearly the nationality at the poet's time ('British Indian'). I believe this is a neutral and fair summary.

For Rumi, the summary says 

Цитат:

Born:  30 September 1207

Balkh(present-day Afghanistan),[2];Wakhsh(present-dayTajikistan),[3][4]

 Khwarezmian Empire

Died:   17 December 1273 (aged 66)
Konya (present-day Turkey), 
Sultanate of Rum

Ethnicity: Persian

As it is clear, the very point that Rumi was born in Balkh (present day Afghanistan), is disputed in the first place. But more importantly, instead of 'nationality'(citizenship) here we have 'ethnicity'. 'Nationality' is a contemporary concept defined as ;"a legal identification of a person in international law, establishing the person as a subject, a national, of a sovereign state." Not present in Rumi's time.

So, I suggest [@LT] adopts the Wikipedia neutral and fair summary description style, by using attributes 'Born','Died', and 'Nationality/Ethnicity' description.

However, in the original comment in this topic, it seems to mean where the poet 'belongs'.  [@Esraa.] ( and others here, here and here) reasoning that being born in a country doesn't mean a poet 'belongs' to that country is quite right. The opening comment says:

Khorasani wrote:

On the English Wikipedia, no country has been chosen for him, but only he is mentioned as a Persian poet and Persians are in both Iran and Afghanistan.

I already talked about why no 'nationality' (and not 'country') has been chosen, which means the whole issue of 'belonging' not relevant, as [@BlackSea4ever] sort of  mentioned.However, if the commenter had followed the link in the page he was quoting s/he would see the following description 

Цитат:

The Persians are an Iranian ethnic group that make up over half the population of Iran.[2][3] They share a common cultural system and are native speakers of the Persian language,[4][5][6] as well as languages closely related to Persian.[7]

Furthermore, reasoning by the original commenter

Цитат:

Your example is different.
Greece and Turkey have cultural and linguistic differences.
But the subject of this discussion is about the countries of Iran and Afghanistan, which have a lot in common, such as culture and language.

With all due respect to Afghan people and their great culture, a large majority of Afghan people (48%) are Pashtun>Pashto language is very different from Iranian Persian, although some people speak the Dari dialect of Persian as a second language. Dari is not the 'Iranian Persian', and definitely not the language Rumi used in his poems.

So the original topic claims that Rumi belongs to some country, while the country was part of a Persiante Empire at that time (Afghanistan was formed in 1709, Rumi died in 1273) and the poet, to the best of my knowledge, does not use Pashto or Dari in his poems. The Persian used in Rumi's poems is Iranian Persian.

Another point worth mentioning is

Цитат:

The same is true for Iran itself, because before 1934 there was no country called Iran, but after the Shah of Iran wrote a letter to other countries that "From now on, call "Persia" "Iran"", before that (1934), Iran was known as a geographical region and not a name of a country.

I'm unaware of the source of such a claim. However, a simple check with Wikipedia (here) reveals

Цитат:

Iran (Persian: ایران‎ Irān [ʔiːˈɾɒːn] (listen)), also called Persia[11] and officially the Islamic Republic of Iran (Persian: جمهوری اسلامی ایران‎ Jomhuri-ye Eslāmi-ye Irān (listen) [dʒomhuːˌɾije eslɒːˌmije ʔiːˈɾɒn]), is a country in Western Asia.

The same reference gives the formation of Iran 'circa 678 BC'. The incident the commenter refers to was an order to change the name, without any change to the geography, used to refer to the country in official documents by Reza Shah, a former ruler of Iran in 1935 (here). The name Persia (and hence Persian) are still used to refer to Iran( and Farsi/Iranian) nowadays, including in LT.

EDIT:

ohkrlll wrote:

... but Dari being the more conservative version of Farsi (Dari means "court" (as in royal court) as in it is the Farsi spoken at the royal court), the language Rumi wrote in is closer to Dari than to Teheran Farsi.

Do you speak Persian or Dari? Can you read Rumi in Persian?

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Se unió: 19.07.2018

So that would be your post on the poet’s page. I have chosen to leave country off when adding artists because Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, etc. they are all OURS. I detest divisions be it country, nationality, religion, language - when we divide people into categories, we allow unsavory leaders or groups use our pride against each other. And that is what happening for ages. And that’s what must stop. One planet - worry about the environment as we all have to breathe, have clean water, enough food... you know this poet well - would he be interested in war or peace, in love or hatred. That’s how to classify and categorize poets and people.

Editor in search of Anningan & Malina
<a href="/es/translator/anerneq" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1112972">Anerneq</a>
Se unió: 10.05.2012
BlackSea4ever wrote:

I have chosen to leave country off when adding artists because Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, etc. they are all OURS. I detest divisions be it country, nationality, religion, language - when we divide people into categories, we allow unsavory leaders or groups use our pride against each other.

I don't see how all of this is applicable in this context. When creating an artist page, you don't have the option of adding a country for nationalistic purposes. With the goal of having as much of a complete database as possible, it's only natural we should add complete information about an artist, including the country they are associated with.
It's not a "us vs them" kind of thing, it's about giving thorough information about an artist. The thread is about how this information needs to be delivered.
There's no reason to get political.

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/khorasani" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499756">Khorasani</a>
Se unió: 06.05.2021

In Afghanistan, there are people who speak languages other than Farsi as there many people in Iran who speak langueges other than Farsi:
53٪ Farsi
18٪ Azeri
10٪ Kordi
7٪ Gilaki and Mazeni
6٪ Lori
2٪ Balochi
2٪ Arabic
2٪ Other languages
Those others may use Persian as second languege as people in Afghanistan do.
CIA 2017 estimate: In Afghanistan, 77% of people speak Persian as a first and second language (interface).

The Persian ethnic is Iranian, but this is not a reference to the present Iran, but to Greater Iran, which in the past had several countries, including Iran itself. And also when you search in Wiki " = Fars ethnic =قوم فارس" it refers you to the "فارسی‌زبانان=Farsi speakers"

In 1934, Reza shah sent a letter to other countries asking them to use "Iran" instead of "Persia", and about that before that "Iran" was known as a geographical region. he causes that misunderstanding. You are not aware of this? Then you should be.

About Dari and Persian
If you say that Dari is one of the Farsi dialects, Persian is also one of the Farsi dialects. Even Afghanistanians speak Farsi more purely than Tehranians.
Dari and Persian are both one language. As many great poets have said in their poems that they write poetry in Dari (Farsi)

Hafez:
چو عندلیب، فصاحت فروشد ای حافظ
تـو قـدر او به سخن گفـتن دری بشکـن
Cho endalib fasahat forooshad ey Hafez
To ghadre oo be sokhan goftan "Dari" beshekan
Hafez:
ز شعر دلکش حافظ کسی بود آگاه
که لطف طبع و سخن گفتن دری داند
Ze sh're delkashe Hafez kasi bowad agah
Ke lotfe tab' o sokhan goftane "Dari" danad
Naser Khosro:
من آنم که در پای خوکان نریزم
مر این قیمتی دُرّ لفظ دری را
Man anam dar paye khookan narizam
Mar in gowhari dorre lafze "Dari" ra

These are just few examples of many.

In fact, you should know more about Farsi. "Farsi" is the main language of the three countries of Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan.
Which is spoken in Iran in different dialects such as Tehrani, Isfahani, Yazdi. Which is called Persian
And also spoken in Afghanistan in different dialects Kabuli, Herati, Kandahari, ... .Which is called Dari
And in Tajikistan, which is called Tajik.
But when you type in Google Translate Farsi, it translates "Persian" !.
In fact, political motives have made a language have three names.
That this ambiguity causes misunderstanding, including in your Comment.

After all, where is the real Iran (not present-day)?
Ferdowsi is one of the great poets and author of Shahnameh, one of the longest epic poems in the world about Iran.
In the Shahnameh, he has introduced the cities and regions of Iran. In the letter of "Piran" to "Goodarz" (characters of Shahnameh), he mentions the major cities of Iran:

هر آن شهر کز مرز ایران نهی/ بگو تا کنم آن ز ترکان تهی
از ایران به کوه اندر آید نخست/ در غرچگان از بر بوم بُست
دگر طالقان شهر تا فاریاب/ همیدون در بلخ تا اندرآب
دگر پنجهیر و در بامیان/ سر مرز ایران و جای کیان
دگر گوزگانان فرخنده جای/ نهادست نامش جهان کدخدای
دگر مولیان تا در بدخشان/ همین است از این پادشاهی نشان
فروتر دگر دشت آموی و زم/ که با شهر ختلان برآید برم
چو شگنان و ترمذ و ویسه گرد/ بخارا و شهری که هستش به گرد
همیدون برو تا در سغد نیز/ نجوید کسی پادشاهی به چیز
وزان سو که شد رستم گردسوز/ سپارم به او کشور نیمروز
ز کوه و ز هامون بخوانم سپاه/ سوی باختر برگشایم راه
بپردازم این در هندوان/ نداریم تاریک از این پس روان
ز کشمیر و ز کابل و قندهار / شما را بود آنهمه زین شمار
و زان سو که لهراسب است جنگجوی/ الانان و غَر در سپارم بدوی

If one is a little familiar with the map of Afghanistan, will notice that the cities and regions mentioned in this poem as cities and regions of Iran, such as:
Gharchegan, Bost, Taleghan, Balkh, Faryab, Merv, Kabul, Kandahar, Nimroz, Bamyan, Panjahir, Andarab, Badakhshan, etc. are all located in present-day Afghanistan.
In fact, more than 90% of the cities mentioned in the Shahnameh are located in present-day Afghanistan.

apparently your problem is just about Afghanistan not other countries that was mentioned in the comments! Good!!

In the end, I hate talking about nationality and ethnicity but it is being shown that Afghanistan has no poets, while this land has many great poets.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Se unió: 19.07.2018

There you go - enter percentages

Editor in search of Anningan & Malina
<a href="/es/translator/anerneq" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1112972">Anerneq</a>
Se unió: 10.05.2012

What d'you mean? Like those ancestry DNA tests?

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Se unió: 19.07.2018

No, the previous post was breaking down who the poet belongs to. I wasn’t political, Joshua, I’m just pointing out such divisions are as divisive as any political are. Indeed, they are one and the same.

Senior Member
<a href="/es/translator/ohkrlll" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1078841">ohkrlll</a>
Se unió: 09.03.2011

Actually [@BlueBird] what you write is about Rumi not writing in Dari is very misleading. Of course Rumi wrote in a language which is different than modern Teheran Farsi or Afghan Dari, but Dari being the more conservative version of Farsi (Dari means "court" (as in royal court) as in it is the Farsi spoken at the royal court), the language Rumi wrote in is closer to Dari than to Teheran Farsi. It's not really important though, both modern Teherani and modern Dari are descendants of what Rumi used to speak and write.

Saying that that Rumi spoke Iranian Farsi and not Dari is like saying that Geoffrey Chaucer spoke New-York English and not "Received Pronounciation"(i.e. the Queen's English) English. It doesn't make sense.

Senior Member
<a href="/es/translator/ohkrlll" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1078841">ohkrlll</a>
Se unió: 09.03.2011

I agree with you [@BlueBird] that the current system doesn't make sense for such old poets, and that the system should be changed to be more like Wikipedia. However, until the system is fixed, I agree with OP that what makes most sense is to give the modern country where the poet was born. In this case, Afghanistan makes more sense than Iran, even though neither really makes sense. (While also agreeing with [@esraa.] that this rule wouldn't make sense for Nazım Hikmet who even though born in what is now modern Greece, has a much stronger cultural connection to Turkey than to Greece. This wouldn't be true of Rumi however, his cultural connection to Afghanistan is as strong or stronger than his cultural connection to Iran. The fact that ~50% of people in Afghanistan are Pashtun, doesn't make the ~50% of Afghans who are Persian less Persian. That would be like saying that a Swiss-German Poet is actually not of Switzerland but of Germany because in his country there are also lots of people who speak French and Italian while he speaks German.)

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

The states in which such old poets lived in that period should be added.
There are many poets who are currently under the name of 'Turkey' but have nothing to do with 'Turkey'. I think 'Ottoman' and 'Seljuk' options should be added.
Rumi also spent most of his life within the borders of 'Seljuks'. (The Great Seljuk Empire was a Turkish State ruling in Iran and Afghanistan at that time.)

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/khorasani" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499756">Khorasani</a>
Se unió: 06.05.2021

First of all, the government at that time was the Khwarazmian and not the Seljuks.
At that time the governments were constantly changing. According to you, then the country of "Saadi" another Persian poet and many other poets, should be Mongolia, because the Mongols took power from the Khwarazmian and Seljuks and ruled for years. But adding Mongolia or (any other empire) to their country is completely incorrect.
Only countries with cultural commonalities are able to be added. Do you agree that Greece be added to the countries if Nazim Hikmat? Adding Turkey to Rumi is as strange as adding Greece to Nazem Hekmat
Can you read only one of Rumi's 170,000 Farsi verses?

Countries can be added that have shaped the culture of the poet.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

Which state shaped the life of Mevlana? Even the place where he turned into Mevlana is the Seljuk Empire. Mevlana came to Anatolia with his family due to Mongolian pressures. Even if you read only on Wikipedia, you can realize the cultural bond of Mevlana with Anatolia.
Nazım Hikmet does not have any cultural bonds with Greece, but Mevlana's bond with Anatolia is closed to controversial.
If Turkish was spoken in Anatolia during the time of Mevlana, I could understand him. We do not deny that he wrote Persian as the official language and literary language at that time was Persian.

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/khorasani" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499756">Khorasani</a>
Se unió: 06.05.2021

The land Khorasan (modern name: Afghanistan that Balkh was/is there) shaped his Persian culture. Where he was born and raised. According to you let's add empire Mongolia to the countries of Persian poets that ruled for years after Kharazmian (you call them Saljuk), while this not correct.

Editor in search of Anningan & Malina
<a href="/es/translator/anerneq" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1112972">Anerneq</a>
Se unió: 10.05.2012
Khorasani wrote:

Countries can be added that have shaped the culture of the poet.

I think it would be more logical to do the opposite: adding the country/ countries whose culture was shaped by a particular poet/ writer.
People are rarely shaped by their culture, more often by their life experiences, which might have happened in their home country or wherever else.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

Exactly.

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/starry-eyed-0" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1247131">starry eyed</a>
Se unió: 25.05.2015

All of us are taking part in a discussion and making it come alive. It should never be viewed like we are speaking against each other. We are only using each other's views to bring out further more clarity and a more clear thought process for others. This is in keeping with the spirit of discussion, debate and dialogue Regular smile

Having said that, and strictly sticking to what the forum is about, here are my observations -

esraa. wrote:

I suggest you go and do some research. Just read the Wiki

Even Wiki is not sure about his birthplace as 2 places are mentioned as his birthplace [Balkh in Afghanistan and Vakhsh in Tajikistan]

esraa. wrote:

But it was the Seljuk Empire during his time

Rumi lived a significant part of his life during Byzantine Period

esraa. wrote:

And Rumi's name comes from Anatolia (Anatolia's other name is Rum)

And the name 'Rum' comes from being 'Roman', hence he is Rumi

esraa. wrote:

Nazım Hikmet's childhood passed in Thessaloniki, is he Greek? There are many examples like this

Similarly Rumi remained consumed only in Persian Culture throughout his life. Nothing could affect him more than this. So he is Persian.

esraa. wrote:

The important thing is where is the place that shaped the life of that poet

In Rumi's case, it's clearly the Persian Culture that shaped his life, not the place where he was in. Had he lived in America (which wasn't even known to the known world during his time), Russia or Antarctica, he still would have remained Persian.

esraa. wrote:

But if I talk about his influence on the Turks, I can write for days

esraa. wrote:

But they completely ignore the influence of Mevlana in Turkish culture and literature

In this particular forum we are discussing about 'influences ON Rumi' to better know the person and take a closer look at him, to better identify who he really was deep inside his heart. And clearly it seems he was influenced and consumed only by the Persian Culture wherever in the world he was living (all being Persianates).

esraa. wrote:

artists who have influenced the world like this should have more information on their pages

For more detailed information on any artist, in every case, the Wikipedia link is provided on their page. We can provide only the most important information directly on their page.

BlackSea4ever wrote:

art and poetry should belong to all, no?

Sure they belong to us all. But they belong to their respective culture foremost, as a result of which they come about and come to life.
Milton and Newton belongs to us all. But they were English.
Maradona and Messi belongs to us all. But they are Argentine.
Da Vinci and Michelangelo belongs to us all. But they were Italian.
Rembrandt and Vermeer belongs to us all. But they were Dutch.
Pushkin and Dostoevsky belongs to us all. But they were Russian.
Aristotle and Socrates belongs to us all. But they were Greek.
Zarathustra and Rumi belongs to us all. But they were Persian.
Raman and Ramanujam belongs to us all. But they were Indians.
Steve Jobs and Emily Dickinson belongs to us all. But they were Americans.
Bach and Beethoven belongs to us all. But they were Germans.
And so on Regular smile

Khorasani wrote:

The country of present-day Afghanistan shaped his Persian culture. Where he was born and raised

In his time concept of culture was more powerful because the concept of nation never existed. Persian Culture alone shaped him and hence he is Persian. Geographically he is Rumi, but lifestyle and culture wise he is Persian Regular smile

Thanks for your reading. Happy to be sharing. Hope you enjoyed. If anything is amiss, i am always willing to stand corrected and learn Regular smile

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

It is so obvious that you wrote without really knowing anything. Mevlana had nothing to do with the Byzantine empire. The word Rum means 'Turkish Dormitory'.
Speak up after doing some research.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

[@lt] Please can you find a solution to this issue?

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/khorasani" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499756">Khorasani</a>
Se unió: 06.05.2021

@starry eyed, I agree with you that modern countries like Iran and Afghanistan did not exist at that time and Farsi or Persian represents them better, but as long as this system exists on the site that shows modern countries, Afghanistan should also be added to the country of Persian poets who were born and raised in.

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/starry-eyed-0" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1247131">starry eyed</a>
Se unió: 25.05.2015
esraa. wrote:

The word Rum means 'Turkish Dormitory'.

esraa. wrote:

And Rumi's name comes from Anatolia (Anatolia's other name is Rum)

Reply to the first quote -
Origin of the word 'Room' : Old English rūm, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch ruim, German Raum. So linguistically you are right as this word could have come in Turkish too to mean a Dormitory from the word 'Rum' meaning 'Room' Regular smile

Answer to the second quote -
Romans named Anatolia 'Rum' after Rome and called its people Rumi. So not just Rumi was called Rumi, all subjects in this geographical area were called Rumi. This is the meaning of 'Rum' in historical context which is applicable and suited in this forum's discussion.

Infact, both words are different in their own right. But since their spelling is same and pronounced the same (being Homonyms), the Linguistic and Historical meaning of each are getting in each other's way Regular smile

Junior Member
<a href="/es/translator/starry-eyed-0" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1247131">starry eyed</a>
Se unió: 25.05.2015
Khorasani wrote:

@starry eyed, I agree with you that modern countries like Iran and Afghanistan did not exist at that time and Farsi or Persian represents them better

That's why 'Persian' is a more appropriate way or approach to represent, learn, identify, study, research and know about the man. And quite naturally it was Persia, Persianates and Persian Culture which had more or less complete influence on him. None of the modern nations like Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan or Turkey existed in his time.

That's why I think Persians say, to fully understand them, one has to understand their culture too along with the language Regular smile

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

I won't answer you, you know nothing. And I said enough things for three days.

Moderator
<a href="/es/translator/hampsicora" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1215565">Hampsicora</a>
Se unió: 02.08.2014

I think there’s no need to fix a country for all the artists we have in LT.
Many of them live in a country different from where they were born, and many of them sing in a language that isn’t the official language of the country where they live.
So, there are Native Americans who don’t sing in English, Tatars who don’t sing in Russian, Kurds who don’t sing in Turkish, Basques who don’t sing in Spanish, Sardinians who don’t sing in Italian, and so on.
And some countries have more than one official language, e.g. Switzerland, Afghanistan, India, etc.

So, I don’t think we need any strict rule. The field “country” can sometimes be left blank, and if you wish to get more information about a given author, you can see his official website or the Wiki page.

Anyway, the most important thing should not be a political criterion (the national borders) but the language(s) in which they sing and express themselves, that’s to say their linguistic identity and the cultural background they belong to.
And this is clearly shown on each artist page.

Senior Member
<a href="/es/translator/ohkrlll" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1078841">ohkrlll</a>
Se unió: 09.03.2011

[@Khorasani] and [@esraa.] , Rumi was born in the Khwarazmian empire (in Balkh in current day Afganistan) but moved to the Rum Seljuk Sultanate which was a different political entity with mixed Turkish/Persian and even Greek culture.

Here is more info on the Khwarasmian empire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarazmian_dynasty
And here is more info on the Rum Sultanate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Rum

The name "Rum" in the Rum sultanate indeed comes from "Rome/Roman" this part of Anatolia had been controled by the Byzantines (Eastern Roman Empire who spoke Greek) whence that in Arab, Turkish, and Persian the area was designated as Rum from the Greek. Here is a copy-paste of the first paragraph of wikipedia:
"The Sultanate of Rum[a] or Rum Seljuk Sultanate (Persian: سلجوقیان روم‎, romanized: Saljuqiyān-e Rum, lit. 'Seljuks of Rome') was a Turko-Persian Sunni Muslim ruled state, established over major cities and territories of Anatolia conquered from the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire by the Seljuk Turks following the Battle of Manzikert (1071) and a subsequent temporary collapse of Byzantine power. The name Rûm was a synonym for the Byzantine Empire and its peoples, as it remains in modern Turkish. It derives from the Arabic name for ancient Rome, الرُّومُ ar-Rūm, itself a loan from Koine Greek Ῥωμαῖοι, "Romans, citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire"."

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/esraa" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1255660">esraa.</a>
Se unió: 10.08.2015

And I say as a Turk, since these lands have been in the hands of the Turks for a long time, the word 'Rum' now means 'Anatolia, the place where Turks live'. We know that the meanings of words can change.
'Rumi had nothing to do with Byzantium. He took the name 'Rumi' because he lived in the land of the Turks.

lt
Administrator
<a href="/es/translator/lt" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1">lt</a>
Se unió: 27.05.2008
ahmad aziz wrote:

At the moment, I think only one country can be added to artist's page. Tagging [@lt] here so they can check if it's possible to expand it.

Now you can specify multiple countries. Thanks for the suggestion!