[CLOSED] More Objective Rules for Hate Speech, Unwelcomed Comments and Personal Issues

151 posts / 0 new
Moderator Alex the Translator
<a href="/es/translator/alexander-laskavtsev" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1248685">Alexander Laskavtsev</a>
Se unió: 06.06.2015
Flopsi wrote:

So it has just been pure coincidence? But there is no such thing like coincidence. If I recall this right it had been Jadis admitting he jumped on the first rule saying "No insults are allowed, EXCEPT for within lyrics". Better think twice. Had it been pure coincidence he published an very old poem right now that was so very well fitting to the situation?

I really don't know if it is just a coincidence or it was his dirty plan to offend Pierre one more time.
I wasn't a whitness of their conflict. I am here after almost 2 years of absence.
But what I see concerning this situation, it's just trying to force the execution of the unpopular person, based on prejudicions about him.
No rules were broken. The only thing we have is just a negative hype due to Jadis' behaviour in the past.
We have no law to judge him. I wasn't that mod, whom Jadis asked to delete the poem, and I don't know who it was.
But what I know exactly, that I would make the same desicion. And it's not about double standards.
No one complained me about this poem. People said here, that they even couldn't imagine that it is connected with Pierre somehow before someone said about that.
I and many members of russian-speaking community were the whitnesses how that poem was written, and I am sure, that the grounds were completely different. And the only thing I can say here is to repeat: if you don't like it, just don't read it and leave this situation alone.

Editor
<a href="/es/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Se unió: 18.10.2015

Now I vote for Jadis' poem to stay. I'll explain myself.

Users come and users go. If anyone feels like establishing friendly relations they usually go through translations and comments to see what kind of person they are going to face. No decent people will go froggy-froggy, nicey-nicey with a person who has written such merde. So let the poem stay and reveal Jadis' guts. Let's see who will eat them Regular smile

Editor Soldier of Love
<a href="/es/translator/flopsi" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1331196">Flopsi</a>
Se unió: 12.03.2017

Let's get it straight one last time. Jadis did all he can - he asked a mod to delete his poem. His wish wasn't granted, because no rules were broken.

Good thing any user can delete his own comments, bad thing no editor and below can delete any added lyrics they've added before even if those lyrics have no translations. The double standards here are those: Lyrics can be deleted because author (but not every author) requested so.

Moderator Alex the Translator
<a href="/es/translator/alexander-laskavtsev" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1248685">Alexander Laskavtsev</a>
Se unió: 06.06.2015

Since we have only a statement that Jadis was asking some moderator to delete it, and we still don't know even the mod's nickname, it can be lies.

OK, I promise:
If I (I speak for myself) receive a demand to unpublish this poem from Jadis (the author) in PM or in public, I WILL do it.

And not because I want it, just to act in according to the rules and for sake of satisfying Flopsi's demands of justice, tolerance and so on and so on. Wink smile
Anyway, I don't believe he will ask me about that.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/skirlet-hutsen" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1363638">Skirlet Hutsen</a>
Se unió: 03.12.2017

Александр, прошу прощения - с гуглопереводчиком не всегда понятны нюансы. Правильно ли я поняла: любой пользователь может попросить убрать произведение, своё или чужое, и его уберут?!

Moderator Alex the Translator
<a href="/es/translator/alexander-laskavtsev" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1248685">Alexander Laskavtsev</a>
Se unió: 06.06.2015

Законное право просить удаления контента (в случае, если он не противоречит правилам сайта) имеет лишь автор контента. В спорных ситуациях каждый случай рассматривается отдельно модераторами и администрацией.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/skirlet-hutsen" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1363638">Skirlet Hutsen</a>
Se unió: 03.12.2017

Тогда в данном конкретном случае всё уже вроде бы решено: модераторы посоветовались и решили оставить стих. Не понимаю, почему вопрос продолжает муссироваться...

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/almitra" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432222">Almitra</a>
Se unió: 01.09.2019
Flopsi wrote:

Oh, I'd like that. So once again let's get rid of those rules because it seems people aren't unable to speak their minds without insulting each other.

Sorry, I'm not really good with words to make my point of view clear to everyone. But at least I've tried. No, I don't care if anybody gets along, love each other and live happily ever after. I care about tolerance, sticking to the rules and not sneaking around it and most of it I hate double standards being applied.

I care about the same things, however my attempts at being tolerant don't stop the moment someone speaks their mind in a way I don't appreciate. And if someone says things I don't like, I have every right to speak my mind as well, and the person dishing it out should better be prepared to take it. Plus, the word "tolerance" has been sabotaged by certain people who tolerate nothing but the things they like or approve of.

I see the biggest difference in our approaches in that you seem to be talking about a world that's sterile enough for people who can't stomach it - we don't have to do anything, it's the entire world that needs to change to accommodate us. Ours doesn't have to be a dog eat dog world, but everyone should at least make an effort to grow a spine, grow a thicker skin, learn to stand their ground, fight back if necessary. We cannot model our society using the most maladjusted as the lowest common denominator because a sterile world is lifeless, and the dictatorship of goodness can be just as devastating and oppressive as any other dictatorship: if you don't want to be nice - we'll make you, if you resist - we'll break you.

We have outlawed all sorts of harmful actions, including hate speech. What more do we want? But advocates of a sterile world can never be happy. Now we've moved on to microagressions, to perceived harmful actions that need to be explained to "the victim," otherwise they wouldn't know they were harmed, to thought policing, and whatnot.

I don't want to repeat the platitude, but at the end of the day, the only thing we can truly control and change is our attitude. And no, this doesn't mean that we should get rid of rules that cover the most egregious cases, but we should not try and regulate for minute unpleasantries or even things that might be perceived as such. You're free to not read or watch certain things, to state your likes and dislikes or express your opinion on just about any topic, free to try and change someone's mind or simply give them a piece of yours, free to ignore whatever and whomever.

As an added bonus, when you allow people to speak their mind the way they choose to, not the way you tell them to, other people can see them for who they truly are. After all, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

As I said, I've argued with Jadis a lot, so it's not about him personally, it's about the principle. Just because you think something is too convenient to be a coincidence doesn't prove or disprove anything. But even if he published the poem to spite Pierre, why should we not allow him to do that? I've read hundreds of poems (considered literary classics) that target certain politicians, one's critics, personal enemies, that criticize groups of people. It's okay for Byron, Wilde or Burns to obliterate their critics or those they dislike, but it's not okay for Jadis to do so? In fact, even outside of classical poetry, we have a genre of poetry that is predicated on the idea of obliterating your opponent verbally - battle rap poetry. Should we outlaw it?

Finally, I have to say one more thing that might rub certain people the wrong way. I just wish people would stop with all the drama - slamming doors, leaving over petty squabbles, deleting their poetry, and all that jazz. Grown ups don't have to act like that. If you're tired, take a break; if you don't like what your critics say, tell them to bugger off or just say that you like your lines the way they are; if you don't like certain poems or authors, don't read them; if you don't like certain people, block and ignore them; if you have something to say, say it - no need for that passive aggressive bs. At the end of the day it's all about one thing - how much you like what you're doing. If you like doing it and you've found a place that allows you to do it, then do your thing and defend your right to stay, should someone dare to question it or try to force you out. If you don't like what you're doing enough, you're free to let every a*hole control your life and boot you out of places you could otherwise enjoy. If you leave, if you drop everything, if you destroy your precious works, if you adjust you life in an undesirable way because of someone else, then who are you really punishing?

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

To #105
Sasha,
If Philippe-Jadis suddenly loses his mind and does request that ( I don't think he will, but if), could you make sure that all the translations and several pages of the discussion stay. I don't think they belong to Philippe anymore...
"Flopsi's demands of justice, tolerance" sounds pretty ridiculous, does not it? So everybody now can come and demand "justice" as they understand it? And how is it that the most intolerant people are always the most aggressive fighters for "tolerance"
In our country where the First Amendment to the constitution is still in effect the concept of "hate speech" is an oxymoron, except for wallflowers
and cancel culture manipulators. Being Jewish and an Israeli citizen I deplore the laws in some European countries that outlaw Holocaust deniers. The reason is simple: the moment you start regulating speech you're done because "regulators" will always be humans with their
agendas.
And Flopsi, we both are on the shortlist of Vera's friends to whom she sent her farewell note. Don't tarnish her legacy here by this ridiculous fight against "hate speech". She didn't leave because some idiots spoke badly of her. She left mostly because of unpublishing, the stupid rules that allowed "the team" to decide for her what's poetry and what's not.
And Vera, please come back.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/skirlet-hutsen" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1363638">Skirlet Hutsen</a>
Se unió: 03.12.2017

Золотые слова, Александр! Я тоже неоднократно спорила с Жадисом, но тут дело не в нём, а в самой тенденции. Некоторые известные издания в некой стране отказались от карикатур и смешных рисунков, чтобы никого не обидеть; мне бы очень не хотелось, чтобы это служило примером.

Moderator Alex the Translator
<a href="/es/translator/alexander-laskavtsev" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1248685">Alexander Laskavtsev</a>
Se unió: 06.06.2015
Dr_Igor wrote:

To #105
Sasha,
If Philippe-Jadis suddenly loses his mind and does request that ( I don't think he will, but if), could you make sure that all the translations and several pages of the discussion stay. I don't think they belong to Philippe anymore...
"Flopsi's demands of justice, tolerance" sounds pretty ridiculous, does not it? So everybody now can come and demand "justice" as they understand it?

Игорь, кому как ни тебе понимать написанное "между строк"?..
Конечно же мне тоже не очень нравится, когда люди агрессивно пропагандируют свою повестку так, будто бы она "единственно правильная".

Да, разумеется, я постараюсь уладить вопрос с модераторами и администрацией, в случае если запрос на удаление поступит. Я думаю мы просто сможем удалить текст, оставив переводы. По-крайней мере мне это видится выходом.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Se unió: 19.07.2018

Recap: closing time:
> poem stays, crap that it is - hurrah, freedom of the speech
> Nemo definitely stays - we need you, you need us
> Vera really should come back
Almitra, the Wise spoke the best:
At the end of the day it's all about one thing - how much you like what you're doing. If you like doing it and you've found a place that allows you to do it, then do your thing and defend your right to stay, should someone dare to question it or try to force you out. If you don't like what you're doing enough, you're free to let every a*hole control your life and boot you out of places you could otherwise enjoy. If you leave, if you drop everything, if you destroy your precious works, if you adjust you life in an undesirable way because of someone else, then who are you really punishing?

To my joy, I found that people care, care to speak up when your friend is hurting, care to fight for him or her, care to think of broader issues, care to be civil and often funny to lighten up the mood — all are the indicators that staying here is worth it, Pierre, and coming back is worth it, Vera.

Love,
D

Moderator poromboessara 👨🏻‍🏫
<a href="/es/translator/alma-barroca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Se unió: 05.04.2012

And I'd like to bring it to public knowledge that I myself was pro-unpublishing that poem as soon as I saw it, but you convinced me that that was not the case. But I still stand that it was not published in an adequate moment.

I don't know Jadis and I don't care for what happened between him and Pierre. But I agree, I don't see why people connected the poem to him.

Pierre, if you read this, you know you're always missed, we like to have you around. If you feel uncomfortable, take a short leave absence, but don't leave for good.

Moderator Alex the Translator
<a href="/es/translator/alexander-laskavtsev" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1248685">Alexander Laskavtsev</a>
Se unió: 06.06.2015
Alma Barroca wrote:

But I still stand that it was not published in an adequate moment.

Holy truth is in your words. Anyway, we have already made our desicion and it is wrong to revoke it now.
I can't imagine how deeply one can hurt the community to deserve such hate, which is still alive?...

And I join to your words about Pierre. I remember him as a very good person.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/skirlet-hutsen" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1363638">Skirlet Hutsen</a>
Se unió: 03.12.2017

Повторюсь: если возникают трения между пользователями, пусть они их решают между собой вдвоём - если их высказывания не нарушают существующих правил. Не думаю, что остальным надо применять тяжёлую артиллерию в виде удаления произведений, не нарушающих правил.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/almitra" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432222">Almitra</a>
Se unió: 01.09.2019

I'd like to point out a small but important detail - while I believe people should grow a thicker skin and learn to fight their fights, I think we can always help them do so by being supportive. So personally, I'm not going to hold your hand, but if you're willing to stand your ground, and I feel that you're being treated unfairly, I'd be more than happy to stand by your side. I've done so before, and many of my colleagues have as well. The continuing support for Pierre and Vera is an example of how the community can back up its own. So in that sense working on building a real community may prove more beneficial than regulating for minutiae and micromanaging users.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Se unió: 01.07.2018

Some people have caught the censorship virus, apparently. Anything that we don't like, go hop: forbidden. A strange conception for freedom of speech, as it seems.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Se unió: 01.07.2018

BTW : As I explained half a dozen of times already, I had nothing against Pierre until now, and my interpretation of the rules referred to another discussion. But that starts getting on my nerves by now. Could please somebody explain Pierre that he is NOT the centre of the world, and that NOT every poem he doesn't like is pointed towards him ? Although I doubt he is able to understand it.As i said too, I'm not a psychanalyst. Do whatever you want with that poem, censor it, destroy it, burn it in public, sprink holy water over it, I don't really care, but in that case I will of course remember it. Amen.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020
I believe [@Jadis] holds full intellectual property rights over the poem he wrote. He hasn’t waived it in any way. LT currently removes content at the request of copyright holders, if any (see here). In this case translations are not unpublishes but hidden and are easily accessible. I can’t see why this should not be extended to the request of Jadis.
 
About unpublishing the poem due to ‘insulting’ someone, he clearly says in his submitters comment:

>> this sonnet I wrote long before I had even heard of LT, so of course it is not addressed to anybody in particular on this site.
 
An insult needs to be addressed to someone, or can be proved to be addressed to someone in particular. I can’t see how this can be done here. A simple but effective strategy to be sure is point-blank confrontation. Anyone feeling this might be addressed to him or her can bluntly ask “Are you talking to me?”.

 

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020
Thanks [@LT] very much for the kind input.
 
First, I would like to emphasize that the rule of law provides a safe and fair environment for everyone. Its primary role is to be corrective and helping, not punitive and preventive. And this should help people who spend their time and energy here having a rewarding and fulfilling experiment.
 
I guess for a huge (some 63k users) and diverse community such as LT, we need more than ‘case-based’ rules. I don’t believe I’m talking about ‘subtle nuances’ of the words in rules. I mean fundamental issues both in form and content of the rules. The first things would be having a ‘constitution’ defining what LT is and what it does. Compared to the content beginning with this page on Wikipedia, I can’t see any such thing in LT.
 
Who we are? Song lovers? People who know different languages (how this can be verified)? What content do we deal with? Lyrics, as the name implies? Literature(poems)? Some literary prose (quotes, etc.)? Is this about languages? Or about translation? Does just knowing languages means we are able to do quality translation? Or do we need to know about the science of translation (theory and practice) itself? I have seen almost nothing about translation (and not languages) in LT. Translation is a science of significant academic importance. It is taught around the world. Many certified translators usually need to go through training and exams to be approved for translating. Also, are we an ‘intellectual community’ interested in ‘translating lyrics’ (and its associated issues)? We have significant and widely used elements of social media (likes, thanks, votes, etc). What is the weight of this social media thing in what we do?
 
In both ‘off-topic comments’ and ‘rude/not rude’ discussion provided in #50, it is said that “In practice, it is quite difficult and energy-consuming to draw a dividing line “. I’m sorry, but a rule so difficult to apply, is clearly not an efficient and useful one. As stated before, writing rules for such a diverse, huge society is a technical issue. And the very basic thing here (the constitution) is defining what we are (and we are not). Define terms, and then write rules based on the constituting notions of the community and those definitions that serves the community.
 
The corner-stone of the first rule seems to be ‘No insults are allowed’. Which begs the question “define insult”. The legal meaning of insult (here) is linked to the sticky notion ‘honor’. The solution provided in #50 is “Only common sense helps us to remain a healthy society, despite such a huge difference in cultures and age. Common sense, supported by the rules”.I’m sorry, but rules need to be precise and self-contained. That is why the famous angle of justice (or whatever it is) is blindfolded and holds a scale. Judgment needs to be based only on facts and laws.
 
I believe a fundamental issue to be dealt with in LT is ‘biased’ comments (in general ‘biased’ content including votes, thanks, etc.). Maintaining a ‘neutral point of view’ is one of the pillars of Wikipedia. But not required in LT at all. People need to target ‘translations’ not ‘other people’. This, and the self-report nature of LT membership, just have the potential to turn LT from its ‘common-sense’ (for now) form- a community of people interested in translating lyrics and share it with the rest of the world- to some ‘social media’ mostly influenced by likes and thanks and followers, etc.
 
I believe these are many fundamental issues to be discussed here. However, I just try to give my brief point of view. A complete discussion will be too lengthy.

An important thing here is that if laws are well-defined and based on the ‘constituent’ values of the community, they should help the community and soon become ‘mores’. After the ‘learning curve’ hopefully they won’t be needed most of the time.

 It is not about ‘thickening our skins’. Street fights easily can become ‘follower(gang) fights’ common in social media. In my professional life, I, like many others, do fight many business fights, but I’m getting paid for that.And I do know that 'they are bad for business'.  Doing that here will be a huge waste of time and energy. This mean LT losing valuable members and becoming more and more a ‘social media’ thing.
 

EDIT: Just to be clear, I have every respect for LT, its admins and other staff and all the wonderful job they have done and are doing. This is just a 'general discussion': giving my point of view and trying to contribute to the community the best way possible.

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

to #121
Hey BlueBird, how about a little humility and trust in your fellow LT-ers. I’d like to believe that your intentions are good. But look at the facts: you are barely half a year here and already posing grandiose questions like “Who are we?” I know who I am, I am not sure who you are and if you and I belong to the same “we”. Especially if you think that “hate speech” is a valid concept. Your references to legal concepts are weird given how many “legal cultures” we all represent. I think things are pretty civil here overall. Let’s not create an issue where none exists. If an occasional uncivilized person comes along we usually successfully deal with it without changing rules. Everybody knows that I’m personally hurt by Vera’s leaving as much as anybody else, but she didn’t leave because we lacked rules. If anything there were too many restrictive rules.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

Hi Dr_Igor. Sorry, but your comment seems not about what I've written. What I've written is about rules and facts, not about how many years you, or I, have been in LT, or 'grandiose', or things like that. It is best not to a turn a general, non-personal discussion into a personal, nonexistent issue.

What I said is about defining (giving a scope) what LT (as a community) is and what it does, not what 'every single person' is and does! I already gave a working example of that on Wikipedia.

You are welcome to your opinion. However, most of your comment is a very good example of targeting 'the person' instead of 'discussing the issue'. Thank you for providing a very good example depicting some of my points.

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

The only reason I mentioned the time you've been with us is to make a point that you haven't experienced lots of good and bad of what was going on here before you joined so you are not in a good position "to know better" what rules should be. As for me "targetting you" personally, why would I do that? Like I said I have no idea who you are. I generally can't stand the self-appointed rule-setters and "protectors" of "victims" that they invent.
Like I said, things here overall are going surprisingly smoothly, mods and editors are doing a good job, so no need to stir the pot.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/skirlet-hutsen" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1363638">Skirlet Hutsen</a>
Se unió: 03.12.2017

Как сказал один опытный компьютерщик, "если что-то неплохо работает, не трожь!"

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

To #125
Гиппократ тоже неглупый был мужик. Клялся много. ( Swore a lot)

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

>> I generally can't stand the self-appointed rule-setters and "protectors" of "victims" that they invent.

What part of this is about the topic? And how much of it is 'targeting the person' ? How can you say I'm a 'self-appointed' 'rule-setter' and I 'invent victims'? Regular smile

As said before, you are welcome to your opinion. I believe in pluralism, which is basically about diversity and tolerance. However, these comments more and more depict my points.

Anyway, I've discussed my points in some details. I rest my case.

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

As I'm welcome to my opinion, my (humble) opinion is that you should have rested your case before you started.
Let me explain the rationale for that.
I am a member, doing what members do - translating stuff, discussing, etc. And then suddenly I see the topic of rules being discussed.
I am a little worried, who knows what stupid suggestions will be put forward... That might affect me...I glance over the discussion.
As far as I can tell there's no pressing need for any change of rules. But some participants make huge posts. Why would they if there's
no pressing need? Should I "study" what they are proposing? I don't want to. But what if they are successful and something stupid gets
implemented? There's always a chance that they don't really mean to push anything but are just bloviating. It would be good if that's the case.
But how can I be sure?

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

>>But what if they are successful and something stupid gets implemented? There's always a chance that they don't
>> really mean to push anything but are just bloviating. It would be good if that's the case.

Why do you think others are stupid, and you are the wise one?! Regular smile And why are you so worried about changes affecting you?

As far as I'm not breaking any LT rules, I have every right to discuss this in the topic. You have no right to tell me not to do this.

I'm sorry, but your comments are personal and off-topic. You are welcome to your opinion about 'the issue of the topic' not welcome to label others 'stupid' and other rude things and give them orders! Regular smile

Editor
<a href="/es/translator/ahmad-aziz" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1320850">ahmad aziz</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2016

Common sense is a good thing. In fact, this is why I did not report the user from whom I received the harsh messages at first. hope that user also comes to this topic and sees beautiful and useful sentences about respect. Respect cannot be gained by making so many rules; However, this site currently has good rules in this regard.
Anyone who edits the lyrics of a song is not the enemy of the submitter and also doesn't deserve harsh messages. People might say we already know this ourselves; I said these things; maybe some people don't.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

[@Ahmad Aziz], thank you for providing an excellent example of 'targeting the person' instead of 'discussing the issue' Regular smile Is this a threat? Use English so that others can enjoy that too!

No further comments!

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

to #129
I am not really worried that anything gets implemented. It's not that easy to implement stuff. Knowing that I am not making posts as long as yours. That would have been bloviating and I don't do that.
I never questioned your right to discuss anything or make any points however long they may be.
My comments are on-topic because my points are: 1. No need to change any rules 2. Nobody's a victim here, the community is strong
to maintain its health. 3. "Hate speech" is not a thing 4. Long posts are counter-productive - who wants to read them.

Editor
<a href="/es/translator/ahmad-aziz" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1320850">ahmad aziz</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2016

It's now in English. And it's not of course off-topic, I talked about the subject, "respect" and didn't name any person. It was just an example.

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

to #133
I already noticed that and adjusted my comment.
Thanks.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

#132
#1- >>I never questioned your right to discuss anything or make any points

It is in direct contrast with the first sentence in your previous message

>>As I'm welcome to my opinion, my (humble) opinion is that you should have rested your case before you started

#2- My comments are on-topic

What part of these are about the topic and not 'targeting the person'?

>> Hey BlueBird, how about a little humility and trust in your fellow LT-ers. I’d like to believe that your intentions are good. But look at the facts: >>you are barely half a year here and already posing grandiose questions like “Who are we?” I know who I am, I am not sure who you are and >>if you and I belong to the same “we”

>> I generally can't stand the self-appointed rule-setters and "protectors" of "victims" that they invent.

>> But some participants make huge posts. Why would they if there's no pressing need? Should I "study" what they are proposing? I don't want >>to.

>>That would have been bloviating and I don't do that --> so what is these all above?

>> 3. "Hate speech" is not a thing --> You have links to UN protocol about it, so It is a thing. It is also 'a thing' in US (see here) and other countries (see here)

>>2. Nobody's a victim here, the community is strong --> When did I say there is a 'victim' here?

>> 3-4. Long posts are counter-productive - who wants to read them. --> What does it have to do with the topic issue

>> I talked about the subject, "respect" --> The comment got a 'face-lift' when being changed to English Regular smile Anyway, the subject of this topic is not 'respect' but 'rules' ('More objective rules ..." )and the example also has nothing to do with it either but with some other personal issues.

Dr_Igor, Ahmad Aziz is known for 'targeting the person'. I'm not going to give him credit by commenting on his comments. However, You say you wanted to make points, you did it, didn't you? So that's the end of discussion!

No further comments!

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

This is not the continuation of the discussion, I just could not let one thing pass. You said
"Ahmad Aziz is known for ..."
This type of bad-mouthing somebody under the flag that "it is known" is so far outside of civilized society manners that you should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe we do need a new rule banning any assertions that something "is known". Just kidding. The community is strong,
we'll straighten you out within the existing rules. Actually, this is exactly what I've been doing. And please, don't bother to respond.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

Dr_Igor, How do you know that what I'm saying is not true ? Like the rest of your refuted claims, it is just another baseless jumping the gun.

Your shaming is of no value, but just FYI, this is true . LT have already asked that user to remove some of his comments. So you should be ashamed of yourself for bad-mouthing me!

Sorry, but your comments were just a huge waste of time!

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

Oh well.
Let me explain an obvious thing to you People with manners don't say negative things publicly about a third person without addressing that third person directly. Regardless of the negative thing being true or false. I suspect that in this case, it is false, but it is really beside the point.

I am ready to wrap it up.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Se unió: 19.07.2018

To wrap it up, which is a good idea, one of you would have to give up having the right to the last word…

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

to #139
who said it is a right? It is a privilege ;-)
Anywho, D, hereby, I delegate my right to the last word to you The Fairest of My Fair Ladies
Be sure to use it wisely.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

To #139
My bad. Regular smile I should have known better than to talk to Dr_Igor in the first place. He is known for off-topic, personal comments (here). 

liadin wrote:

[@Dr_Igor] Whatever issues you have with a moderator or moderators is relevant how to this topic? No offense, but you only seem to come out of the woodwork when you want to lump us all together.

If somebody is known to target others and make off-topic aggressive discussions, there is nothing wrong in telling him so. As others also do.

It just saves everybody's time! And gives people a chance to discuss relevant issues!

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

Sorry, can't answer that. delegated my right to the last word to Deanna [@BlackSea4Ever]

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

Well, When you are in breach of LT laws you need to answer to someone: Writing my username in Russian was just to try to escape responsibility? Are you talking to me?

Quote:

First rule:
Filthy, offensive, and obscene language and images are prohibited on the site;, including usernames and profile pictures.That also extends to offending people based on their nationality, sexual orientation, skin color, religious beliefs, political views, etc. This is a multicultural and multinational website, so respect comes always in first place. No insults are allowed, except for within lyrics.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Se unió: 19.07.2018

Both of you should be ashamed.
I assume Blue Bird, you are an adult. If I’m mistaken, you have much to learn. If you are an adult, act like it!
Both of you engaged in unsubtle baiting and brought little positive to the discourse.
Just stop. Both of you, please stop.

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

to #146

With all due respect, offensive, filthy language is what people should be ashamed of, not being rewarded, as clearly advised by LT rules. Patronizing people you don't know doesn't change this, and I found it not particularly appropriate.

I can't see why, and have no interest in, discussing this with you any further. The user seems to be your friend, with a documented history of off-topic, rude and aggressive attitudes. I can just feel sorry for him, as he can't help himself and eagerly seeks shallow games he thinks are smart. I hope he gets better sometime Regular smile

As I said, my bad! Regular smile Should have ignored him in the first place! Regular smile

 

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

Hallelujah! End of the discussion! It was very productive!
Sorry, can't help it: your comment #148 is a response to #149?

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

Ok people, please forget the off-topic issues and ignore the person who just does it regularly.

Time to get back to the main topic and ignore irrelevant issues and talks.

<a href="/es/translator/drigor" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1465978">Dr_Igor</a>
Se unió: 08.08.2020

OK, It's OVER! Mods, close this freaking "discussion", please...

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1483017">BlueBird</a>
Se unió: 27.12.2020

I've given the main points and issues. The off-topic issues and comment happened in this thread provide very good examples to depict many of the major points presented. To see some shallow games and loopholes, please see here.

It might be time to also look at examples of somehow similar, and very successful sites. Wikipedia as an excellent collaborative content provider is one example. I've covered many of its aspects, in previous comments. Proz.com  is another  community of usually certified translators whose main job is posting professional translator jobs, usually from international agencies. It is sort of de facto standard site for the freelance translators. Most people over there are certified translators, although it is not necessary to be one to become a member. It has excellent forums on different issues of translations, that can be similar to the comments and forums here. I have been there for sometimes and have seen almost no trolling, off-topic or inappropriate behavior. The site clearly defines its scope and mission. Excellent forums on terminology and translation and others on professional translation issues. There are many other interesting features (courses, translation contests, mentoring programs, etc.). It works very smooth.

A main distinction is that since people bid for translations, almost all people there are professionals or 'semi-professional' translators. Although it is open membership policy, usually other people just don't go there as their chances of landing jobs are very slim. The problems mentioned due to open membership policy in LT almost does not exist there. People participating in forums are mostly very knowledgeable and to the point. And you'll be lucky to use their knowledge and expertise, if they choose to participate. Considering the professional nature, there is almost never any personal attacks or off-topic issues. I haven't seen moderators there, but most probably it is not needed at all.

EDIT: End of discussion mentioned in a previous comment, meant ending the useless 'off-topic' discussion, not the main one. Regular smile

Super Member
<a href="/es/translator/almitra" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432222">Almitra</a>
Se unió: 01.09.2019

As much as you dislike Igor, he posed at least two legit questions. Why do you care who we are and what we do? I've been here for two years and have never had that question in the back of my mind. I know who I am and what I'm doing here. Igor knows that. I can't think of anyone who doesn't except you. So what exactly do you expect the rules to do? To tell you who you are and what to do? To tell you who other users are and what they're doing? Another question is, why the urgency? What specific problems do we have to solve by stating who we are and what we do?

Look, if you want the rules to have a section that clearly defines what content is allowed on the site, I have no problem with that. Maybe we need to clarify that everything people do here is pro bono, so users may request help with their content but can't really demand anything (some new users seem to be confused here). Maybe we need to state that the site's content is user-submitted, so all the pros and cons of the approach are to be expected. Maybe. I've never had a problem figuring it out and haven't met anyone who had. But I'm not every man. Probably the rules could benefit from some sort of structure and navigation. I don't know. As I said, I can't remember having a problem here that I couldn't solve or that we couldn't resolve within our community (with occasional mod interventions within the existing rules).

But that I could understand. What I don't understand is what you're trying to say with respect to translation as a science and the qualifications of our users. I'm a certified translator with a master's degree in translation studies. Other users come from a variety of educational backgrounds, including a bunch of those who could benefit from going through the elementary-school curriculum one more time. So what should the rules say about us all? Translation is a science all right. But it's also a hobby, and it has been for centuries (we know many decent translations by famous authors without a formal degree). I'm not exactly sure what you want the rules to say about the translation aspect. Lay out translation standards or something?

And if you want a typical PR page with the usual "We are a community that strives to..." drivel, then I could care less about any of that. I've stopped reading such sections on trendy websites precisely because they give me nothing of value, except virtue signaling and PR statements. The section you've quoted from Wikipedia talks a lot, however I know precisely how they present information about my country in their articles, so a huge chunk of that drivel goes out the window right away. And the gap between PR statements and reality is the same for any other site. So why waste words talking about "maintaining a neutral point of view" when you bloody can't? Wiki is biased and partisan as heck, which is why alternative wiki's keep popping up. There's no such thing as a neutral point of view because no person is ever neutral, unless they come from a different planet, and even then they will have preconceptions that will make them have a certain point of view. Wiki also says that they have many a discussion, so agreeing on a neutral point of view may be a lengthy PROCESS. Isn't that what we do here too, ad nauseam at times?

As for off-topic and rude comments, you've been given the only answer that seems reasonable. If you believe that you can clearly define an off-topic comment or the one that is rude and inappropriate, then - I'm sorry - you don't know how human communication works. It can only be done on a case-to-case basis, and it often depends. I've seen many discussions that veered off and on topic but eventually led to valuable contributions. I've seen huge bodies of translation works stem from off-topic discussions, just because people started sharing their tastes in poetry for instance. Human communication is not an algorithm, it's a process in which one thing leads to another and you can't always predict the outcome. Is an off-topic comment that leads to a discussion of an on-topic issue considered off-topic? The same goes for rude comments. Alas, but rudeness is like beauty - it's in the eye of the beholder. We all know that you can't justify your statement by someone's race, nationality, gender, etc. The rules say as much. It's easy to spot and punish for because we all understand that people should be treated as individuals, not as a sum total of stereotypical traits ascribed to a certain group, and that people are not defined by the group they happen to belong to by virtue of being born into it. What else are you missing? Again, if you want rules that will establish that "lawyery" hairsplitting pattern of discussion you've demonstrated on Igor (you went off topic, sir; what you said is not relevant; this word relates to my person and that one relates to my comment), then I'm not interested. Because those are the true off-topic discussions, since the majority of time is wasted on arguing about form, not substance. I'd rather talk to a human being with all their imperfection then to a rule-thumping lawyer.

As for your other statements. Fighting is bad for business? Business is all about fighting. Actually, the world of business is the only place where the perverse form of a well-known Darwinian principle reigns supreme. You're not selling Bibles as your business, are you? But even in that case, if you don't fight back and grow a thicker skin, you'll be "outbibled" by your competition in no time. Lucky for us, we aren't here doing business, so we don't have to fight if we don't want to. But we can if we feel we have to, and that is a valuable liberty we should be allowed to enjoy.

The social media angle? Yes, we do have a few traits that bring us closer to a social media platform. But what tools would you like to be removed? We have ratings that help other users express their opinion about a translation more precisely than a simple "Thanks" allows (and the rating system and its application are defined in the FAQ). We have likes that help other users spot comments approved by other community members. A helpful tool, imo. We have a comment section, and as I've said, human communication is complicated, so if you allow users to comment, they will be going on and off topic, there will be an occasional fight, no matter how many rules you make. Once again, I can't speak for other communities, but in our Russian-speaking community an exchange of comments can take many forms, but it's also a valuable sharing exercise - we learn from each other and grow as people and translators. That is also a feature of a social platform, which I value despite its obvious shortcomings. I just don't get what you want this site to be.

I don't know, maybe it's because I'm Russian (and we have the nose for propaganda, given our country's history, it's in our DNA), but what you're saying sounds off to me, even though I can't always put my finger on it. Your comments read like a utopian novel or something. Why are you so fascinated with empty words and that virtue-signaling rhetoric that seems to be so pervasive these days? It's just words. I've said it a million times that you can't have a discussion on Youtube even though its community guidelines say all the right things. LT is miles ahead of YT in terms of its community and the possibility of a dialogue. I can't speak on the Wiki community and their discussions, since I'm not contributing. So what I'd like to propose is this: please give us real, specific examples of problematic behaviors that you feel can be changed by amending the rules, and we'll discuss them specifically. Otherwise this discussion will end up going nowhere.

Moderator Alex the Translator
<a href="/es/translator/alexander-laskavtsev" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1248685">Alexander Laskavtsev</a>
Se unió: 06.06.2015

I am closing the discussion. It is turned in a childish game: who will say the last word. It is said enough to think about.

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