A last word of armchair psychology: madness and chaos go hand in hand.
Mental illness can be a terrible thing, and though it's not really contagious, it has an influence on people confronted with it. Inconsistency drives people crazy. I can see a reflection of it in this dissent among us.
As for helping people, it goes well beyond goodwill and kindness.
Saying yes is easy and gratifying. Saying no is not only a lot of hard work, it also makes you look and feel like shit.
And yet if you can't help someone, yes is not the right answer.
... I think LT moderation strikes a remarkable balance between tolerance and efficiency. It does not appear to be broken, so I would rather not try to fix it.
This time, I absolutely agree with you, Pierre (first sentence)! It is a great place here! Regarding the second one, maybe you're right ("never change a winning team"). Another question is, whether Aaron is willing to come back (to climb into one of your lifeboats without scuttling it, again). As far as I know he has find a new home at "musixmatch"...
Deniz, you do not interrupt! Thank you for your contribution and support! Yes, Aaron is an "Aspie" (his expression!), and, to be honest, I have not much experience with that. I wonder, if he is juristically "full responsible" regarding his emotional life? If you are sitting in a wheel-chair, no one would ever expect, that you are doing Olympic long-jump. It is not possible, so there is no sense in demanding it. What will such a person feel, if you insist? Sadness? Anger?? - It is not his "bad" character - it is a re-action!
... and - of course - protect! Protect yourself and other people. But – please - don't punish, don't mix "justice" with "revenge". Our life shouldn't be a stupid John-Wayne-movie. No one should be the "black sheep", used by others to maintain their instable social cohesion.
What will happen? Pierre should know it: one member, the weakest, has to be the "black sheep" for the whole family. Then it is removed. Peace! – Peace? Oh, no, because it has not solved the problem!
They choose the next one, the next "black sheep" and it all starts again... Aggression on both sides! Let's see into the mirror! Let's see the mote (splinter) in our own eyes first... We cannot control other people, but we can control our own behavior, our own lives.
...Trying to save someone and failing is far worse than doing nothing...
And how do you know in advance that you will fail? Can you ever know it before? Are you really sure or just burned-out after all your sad and disappointing experience? Don't loose your hope and enthusiasm, Pierre, if it is too difficult to save the whole world, make smaller steps and you will win.
...Mental illness can be a terrible thing, and though it's not really contagious, it has an influence on people confronted with it...
Yes, terrible, but Asperger is not an illness (please see here: https://www.kinder.de/ratgeber-1/leben-mit-behinderung/geistige-behinder...). In this text it is said: "Eine weitere Form ist das Asperger Syndrom, benannt nach Hans Asperger. Hierbei wird der Autismus erst später als beim Kanner Syndrom festgestellt, meist mit dem Eintritt in die Schule. Dann fällt auf, dass diese Kinder Probleme beim Erkennen sozialer Regeln haben. Weiterhin sollen sie Gefühle ihrer Mitmenschen nicht erkennen können und wirken deswegen oft unsensibel oder verletzend." Google -Translate said: "Another form is Asperger's Syndrome, named after Hans Asperger. Autism is diagnosed later than in Kanner syndrome, usually when you start school. Then it is noticeable that these children 👉 have problems recognizing social rules. Furthermore, they should not be able to recognize the feelings of their fellow human beings and therefore 👉 often appear insensitive or hurtful."
So, here is my summing-up: Aaaron is juristically not fully responsible, so he should receive "mitigating circumstances", not a social "death sentence".
I really don't think LT has a scapegoat problem. Some people will feel victimized and complain about it no matter what, but so far I always found it to be an expression of their own issues.
The collegial system works very well to avoid rash decisions and maintain an acceptable objectivity and fairness.
You could argue about the severity of a particular decision or the more or less strict interpretation of the rules, but I have yet to witness an arbitrary, unjustified decision from any moderator here.
I can't see the future, but I learned a great deal from the past in this particular domain. I've spent a lot of time and efforts working with such teenagers. We used to call them something like "sweet pain in the ass" kids. "'likeable troublemakers", so to speak.
You would be constantly torn between empathy and the need to enforce authority. Not only did it make you feel bad, it also created rifts among the various people in charge of the case. Yeasayers vs. naysayers, good cops vs. bad cops, compassionate vs. heartless, etc. This was an exhausting job as a case worker, despite an environment designed to help us maintain some degree of objectivity and emotional distance.
In an Internet community, their mere presence is nothing short of toxic. If you decide to welcome someone who literally cannot behave himself without constant use of external authority, you accept the responsibility of the potential damage he can cause.
That includes having him break rules faster than you can enforce them (a de facto unfair treatment of other users), settling disputes with a number of annoyed or even hurt other users, and dealing with your own miniature version of the OJ Simpson case, with its endless stream of arguments like this thread, invariably ending in a war between the knights of compassion and the henchmen of heartlessness.
All this to which effect? Validating an attitude that simply don't belong in an organized society. Is it worth it? Clearly, no.
So, here is my summing-up: Aaaron is juristically not fully responsible, so he should receive "mitigating circumstances", not a social "death sentence".
I hold no grudge against him, quite the opposite, and I don't think he deserves any punishment.
I wouldn't even try to judge him, so I wouldn't know what to do with these mitigating circumstances.
I think allowing him to go on like he did for more than two years would at best maintain the illusion that he can get away with his issues instead of working to address them.
Assuming you manage to handle the situation on LT, what about the rest of the world? You can't bend social reality around him. Validating his behaviour on this site would only work against any attempt at improving it in a reality in which it most likely causes him a lot of trouble and pain, and over which nobody here has any control.
This might be a satisfactory solution for him and those willing to extend their compassion to him, but this is not my idea of helping people.
...You would be constantly torn between empathy and the need to enforce authority... ...Yeasayers vs. naysayers, good cops vs. bad cops, compassionate vs. heartless, etc. This was an exhausting job as a case worker... ... invariably ending in a war between the knights of compassion and the henchmen of heartlessness.
Hm, that sounds again like "black-and-white", "to be or not to be". Is that really the question? Do you think, empathy and clear rules is a contradiction? I don't think so. If you make a war between these positions, it is very exhausting, indeed.
...I think allowing him to go on like he did for more than two years...
Pierre, please, tell me: when did I support this position? I never was in favor of that "Groundhog Day"-solution! You have contributed very much here, thank you for that, but have you really read, what I have suggested? Now, I am sad and tired...
I personnally have been banned from a lot of sites, because I have a tendency to say what I think, which isn't in accordance with the "netiquette". I survived (these sites did too, probably). But on this one nobody cared to ban me yet, and I didn't feel the necessity to get banned, perhaps because the administrators are no "kapos" like elsewhere, and don't eagerly control every word you say, in order to sack you as fast as possible and thus prove that they detain the power (while actually, they just tremble at the idea that they could be taken to court by whistleblowers). The best thing would be to make one's own site and to be the only user of it, I guess.
Let’s be clear here, I never heard a word for which LT might have banned you (well, unless it was in idiomatic French), and editors and mods here are simply wonderful, and I love Pierre. However, the crux is Aaron - can he grow and benefit himself and others?
We do not know, but we do know that exclusion is a damaging way not to be used lightly. And recognizing this, Vera simply made a common sense appeal to let Aaron learn acceptable behavior without loosing acceptance.
I don't know about this particular case, but in general the best attitude when you meet somebody acting like an idiot is probably to ignore him, as long as he doesn't do you any real harm. "Passer pour un idiot aux yeux d'un imbécile est une volupté de fin gourmet", said Courteline.
Hm, that sounds again like "black-and-white", "to be or not to be". Is that really the question? Do you think, empathy and clear rules is a contradiction? I don't think so. If you make a war between these positions, it is very exhausting, indeed.
I assure you it isn't. There are gradations in the response you can give to a transgression, or rather a series of transgressions. Being inflexible is rarely, if ever, the best move. However, you always have to choose between the immediate gratification of being the nice guy and the unpleasant task of inflicting frustration, in the hope setting some limits will prove beneficial in the long run. It's the fundamental problem of educating people. The French name of this particular case worker job is actually "éducateur spécialisé" ("specialized educator").
The problem is rather to lose your objectivity out of fondness for the kid. You simply cannot work with a kid to whom you can't say no.
Vera Jahnke a écrit :
I never was in favor of that "Groundhog Day"-solution! You have contributed very much here, thank you for that, but have you really read, what I have suggested?
I think I did. To be honest, what you propose seems very close to what actually happened these last two years. Aaron was treated with kindness. He was never bullied or ridiculed , as far as I can recall. Every problem was discussed both with him and among the staff. Much efforts were made to clear any possible misunderstanding and make the decision as transparent as possible. Many people went to great lengths to try and smooth the rough edges. I could name a few who wrote remarkable messages showing humanity, benevolence, consideration and subtlety. Most of it happened behind the scene though, as it should, and I only saw the editor part of it.
If your adorable kitty hissed and clawed, would you throw her out or would you try to understand and teach her the acceptable behavior? Now, this is a human child, who suffered plenty, so... punish or banish? Clearly, making him a novice-like status + disabling comments seems an appropriate punishment whereas a permanent banishment is more like your French guillotine.
Hi, so sorry for interrupting but I've something to say about Aaron...
He once told me that he had autism. I was too sorry for him and I couldn't let him be left alone, and he was pretty kind and helping hand to me. He was always translating the songs in German I requested. Then I couldn't be online for 1 month and once I came here I heard that Aaron was permamently banned... What the flower? Why? What could have he done? I was shocked... Can never imagine him as a mean guy, I'm sorry. Have you guys ever checked his Youtube Channel, I have. You better check... I thought that he was all alone in his real life... Have you guys read Aaron's poems, I have. He had no friends he was saying it all the time!
We all know that Aaron has either Asperger's or another level of autism and wanted to make LT friendly for him. However, how can he expect to make friends when he calls people assholes, says he'll make their lives a personal hell and tends to not accept rules being enforced? That is exactly the point of (I guess I can speak in the names of) the Mods that have had to deal with his rants. I've been nothing but caring for him, but I can't just let him do as he pleases then come and say 'I have an issue' and we erase everything we do. Maria wished a Mod died of cancer and was raped, then one beautiful day she left a comment saying that she also had mental issues. That is no justification for bad behavior. If we let him come back it's as if we were burying our own rules and saying to every user who ever left the website that our rules have no worth. He was caring with a few, aggressive with most others.
It's perfectly evident to any one here that I've *always* been caring for Aaron, telling him that we know how he likes LT et al. but we have rules just like any other situation, either in real or virtual life, so he has to follow them. No one here holds a grudge against him, but, again, he hasn't give us any proof that he will change.
silenced a écrit :
I think allowing him to go on like he did for more than two years would at best maintain the illusion that he can get away with his issues instead of working to address them.
Assuming you manage to handle the situation on LT, what about the rest of the world? You can't bend social reality around him. Validating his behaviour on this site would only work against any attempt at improving it in a reality in which it most likely causes him a lot of trouble and pain, and over which nobody here has any control.
I don't know about this particular case, but in general the best attitude when you meet somebody acting like an idiot is probably to ignore him, as long as he doesn't do you any real harm.
I would never call Aaron an idiot or anything of the sort. I think he had serious issues which drove him to behave in damaging and unacceptable ways, but I never questioned his intelligence. It's beside the point, in my opinion.
As for doing harm, his outbursts were clearly unacceptable. The GT translations he kept publishing were removed, as they should, and he reacted by pouring insults (and occasionally threats) on people, both in PM and on public pages. He also had a few personal enemies at which he would snipe at every occasion. No way this could have been overlooked.
Maybe I'm slowly getting old and conservative, I don't know, and I have never accepted the classic gender roles, but when I read, how consequent the same dogmas are repeated again and again, I wonder, whether men (in general) are better in playing their war-games with their typical black-and-white patterns, and women in ensuring social relationships. In the whole world nowadays seems to exist only "yes or no", "poor or rich", "winners or losers". The demons of the last century are returning, with all their might. "Versus" instead of "variety" allover, outside and inside. Typical for periods of crisis, not a specific problem of LT itself, of course. And typical for a superficial digital world with its simple O-or-1-system. Quo vadis?
And maybe it's because I played in a band once. That can only succeed if you respond to your fellow players, pick up their impulses and develop them. This is how synergy and good music is created.
Jadis/Philippe wrote about a one-man-website. Yes, it is nice to live alone on an island to relax or reflect. And you can do it for a while. But then your soul begins to starve. No one deserves such a death, no one.
Even Aaron, who wrote to me today, regrets this hardening of the fronts and said that he did not send his insults as they reached the recipient.
Finally, as a fan of hip-hop, it could be possible that he has a "different" attitude to these expressions, which unfortunately does not turn out to be suitable for everyday use.
With all due respect, Vera, and you too, Deana, I think you might have formed a wrong notion of how things went. I see no black and white in the chain of events which led to Aaron's ban. It spanned two years or more, involving many people and hours of discussion. The ban is definitive alright, but the process that led to it was very gradual and carefully considered.
The very first rule of socialization is to learn and master the common codes. First of all, saying the magic words, at least until people know you well enough to be reasonably sure you didn't come here to steal their goats.
You can try attending a business meeting in a leopard g-string or using "go fuck a duck" to greet people, only don't go complaining about getting the cold shoulder or a bunch of fives.
...I see no black and white in the chain of events ...
That's not what I meant, you missunderstood me. Oh dear, is my English really so poor? I am speaking about the "black-and-white"-option regarding his membership, Pierre, not the process.The process was talking and discussions without concrete effects or consequences except some temporary and then a final ban. - Do you understand it now? To ban or not to ban! Nothing in between, no stop of the comment-function etc. - And that's the point here.
Can you remember Deanna's cat? "If you don't scratch you can stay, if you scratch I throw you into a pond, okay?" - Poor cat, it cannot understand this "language", so farewell pussy cat!
I think it's only wise to put a stop to a seriously damaging situation when constant calls to reason and displays of benevolence have failed for more than two years. Allowing one user to consistently violate all rules of posting and randomly bark "leck mir an Arsch" at people while hundreds of others are required to behave in a civilized manner is not acceptable.
Juan said it very well and I can only second him. Being unhappy or unlucky or sick or in pain is not a license to fuck about.
I don't think Deanna's cat metaphor fits here. The first degree equivalent would rather be "if you cannot repress the urge to throw insults at people nor bring yourself to follow a few simple rules after two years of constant reminding, you can't stay here". And I totally agree with that.
Again LT is an open environment, nothing like a secure institution where such transgressions, outbursts and shows of aggressivity are expected and can be contained.
One word about your use of "social death", "French guillotine", etc. I'd rather use that notion with a bit more care. I make no secret of my personal situation, and I think I can say a thing or two about what social death can mean. It goes beyond being banned from an Internet community, according to my personal experience. After you switch off your PC, it follows you in the street, in your shower, in your bed, in your dreams.
And you can "die" for far less than mightily pissing off quite a few people for a few years. The wrong Excel line turning red is quite enough for a lot of people. Or a professional burn-out. Or a godawful dysfunctional family. Or a mix of the three. Or sheer bad luck.
Last time I checked, you can't buy bread nor a paper at LT, nor sit at a terrace sipping coffee, nor share anyone's bed nor breakfast.
LT is a great place, but it's not the society, let alone the reality. So no, Aaron was not sentenced to any kind of death. He was banned from LT.
Pierre,
One of us hasn’t been outside for over a year, didn’t sip coffee on a terrace (or a balcony), one’s place in the society and reality isn’t as straightforward (and you know it). I was banned for a week and it was painful. And two years are insignificant in a young man’s life. My son became tolerable at 25. He’s wonderful now, but the bitter taste lingers so I understand all your points. There was the time when school wanted to expel him. I went there every week and appealed and appealed to the teachers and principle. But it was kids that solved it - they came and spoke on his behalf without being asked. I’m grateful to them all to this day because I’m certain that sense of belonging was vital.
Investing your life in an Internet community is a dangerous thing to do. I of all nolifes should know. Better make sure you can fit in before stepping through the looking glass, or the Queen of Hearts will have your head.
"If Aaron is reading all this, grow up! Put the past behind you! Don’t discount friendships you were offered to dwell on the past!
Ask for help - there are people who live for helping others. Keep translating and writing! Know that you can control your moods, your words, your happiness! Yes, happiness!"🌈💖🦄
That's it!
Respect and include your shadows. They're a part of you but there are not you at all in all.
And to all of us, i think we have to try it again and again and again. And we have to hope into a develop. That's life! In real and on LT.
Not only aaron has to learn a few leasons. Everyone is learning and aaron is also a teacher as well as each other person on this board. You can take a look of the problems or you can take a look of the chances or you can do booth. The final question is: are you take part of a solution or are you a part of the problem. Find your way and position! Every day of your life. What was yesterday the right don't must be the right thing for now or for tomorrow. The one thing that will be stable is transistion. Keep the chances and trust into the change.
Indeed. Tends to indicate the Internet and the world at large have yet to reach the highest degree of education.
Well, I wouldn't want this to turn into a quotation battle, or any kind of battle for that matter.
I feel deeply for Aaron, and even for Maria and even ANSH60, despite all the trouble he (and his gang of enraged groupies) dragged me through back when I was still a moderator.
Still, I think there are a few things that LT cannot allow to be challenged by anybody:
- respectful behaviour (or it will become the kind of garbage dump most social networks have long devolved into)
- real and original translation work (or it will become just another repository of illiterate nonsense, selling ringtones and porn for a living)
Aaron consistently undermined both these pillars. This is not about him, it's about LT protecting itself.
I hope with all my heart he will find a way to solve his issues. But as long as he hasn't, allowing him to come back here would amount to invalidate the very rules that make LT what it is.
Lazar, we can see when you make new accounts. All further accounts will continue to be cleaned up, your content removed and any that has already been added will be removed or edited, authorship removed. You are not welcome, you know exactly why. Thread closed.
A last word of armchair psychology: madness and chaos go hand in hand.
Mental illness can be a terrible thing, and though it's not really contagious, it has an influence on people confronted with it. Inconsistency drives people crazy. I can see a reflection of it in this dissent among us.
As for helping people, it goes well beyond goodwill and kindness.
Saying yes is easy and gratifying. Saying no is not only a lot of hard work, it also makes you look and feel like shit.
And yet if you can't help someone, yes is not the right answer.
No, thanks, Michael, I didn't know. 😀 The problem remains, that a user can comment on another place or, as mentioned by Pierre, write a "poem"...
This time, I absolutely agree with you, Pierre (first sentence)! It is a great place here! Regarding the second one, maybe you're right ("never change a winning team"). Another question is, whether Aaron is willing to come back (to climb into one of your lifeboats without scuttling it, again). As far as I know he has find a new home at "musixmatch"...
Deniz, you do not interrupt! Thank you for your contribution and support! Yes, Aaron is an "Aspie" (his expression!), and, to be honest, I have not much experience with that. I wonder, if he is juristically "full responsible" regarding his emotional life? If you are sitting in a wheel-chair, no one would ever expect, that you are doing Olympic long-jump. It is not possible, so there is no sense in demanding it. What will such a person feel, if you insist? Sadness? Anger?? - It is not his "bad" character - it is a re-action!
... and - of course - protect! Protect yourself and other people. But – please - don't punish, don't mix "justice" with "revenge". Our life shouldn't be a stupid John-Wayne-movie. No one should be the "black sheep", used by others to maintain their instable social cohesion.
What will happen? Pierre should know it: one member, the weakest, has to be the "black sheep" for the whole family. Then it is removed. Peace! – Peace? Oh, no, because it has not solved the problem!
They choose the next one, the next "black sheep" and it all starts again... Aggression on both sides! Let's see into the mirror! Let's see the mote (splinter) in our own eyes first... We cannot control other people, but we can control our own behavior, our own lives.
And how do you know in advance that you will fail? Can you ever know it before? Are you really sure or just burned-out after all your sad and disappointing experience? Don't loose your hope and enthusiasm, Pierre, if it is too difficult to save the whole world, make smaller steps and you will win.
Really? Why not? The right place is everywhere! And "We are the People"! 🎵
Sorry, Alexandre, I didn't understand, what you mean...
Yes, terrible, but Asperger is not an illness (please see here: https://www.kinder.de/ratgeber-1/leben-mit-behinderung/geistige-behinder...). In this text it is said: "Eine weitere Form ist das Asperger Syndrom, benannt nach Hans Asperger. Hierbei wird der Autismus erst später als beim Kanner Syndrom festgestellt, meist mit dem Eintritt in die Schule. Dann fällt auf, dass diese Kinder Probleme beim Erkennen sozialer Regeln haben. Weiterhin sollen sie Gefühle ihrer Mitmenschen nicht erkennen können und wirken deswegen oft unsensibel oder verletzend." Google -Translate said: "Another form is Asperger's Syndrome, named after Hans Asperger. Autism is diagnosed later than in Kanner syndrome, usually when you start school. Then it is noticeable that these children 👉 have problems recognizing social rules. Furthermore, they should not be able to recognize the feelings of their fellow human beings and therefore 👉 often appear insensitive or hurtful."
So, here is my summing-up: Aaaron is juristically not fully responsible, so he should receive "mitigating circumstances", not a social "death sentence".
I really don't think LT has a scapegoat problem. Some people will feel victimized and complain about it no matter what, but so far I always found it to be an expression of their own issues.
The collegial system works very well to avoid rash decisions and maintain an acceptable objectivity and fairness.
You could argue about the severity of a particular decision or the more or less strict interpretation of the rules, but I have yet to witness an arbitrary, unjustified decision from any moderator here.
I can't see the future, but I learned a great deal from the past in this particular domain. I've spent a lot of time and efforts working with such teenagers. We used to call them something like "sweet pain in the ass" kids. "'likeable troublemakers", so to speak.
You would be constantly torn between empathy and the need to enforce authority. Not only did it make you feel bad, it also created rifts among the various people in charge of the case. Yeasayers vs. naysayers, good cops vs. bad cops, compassionate vs. heartless, etc. This was an exhausting job as a case worker, despite an environment designed to help us maintain some degree of objectivity and emotional distance.
In an Internet community, their mere presence is nothing short of toxic. If you decide to welcome someone who literally cannot behave himself without constant use of external authority, you accept the responsibility of the potential damage he can cause.
That includes having him break rules faster than you can enforce them (a de facto unfair treatment of other users), settling disputes with a number of annoyed or even hurt other users, and dealing with your own miniature version of the OJ Simpson case, with its endless stream of arguments like this thread, invariably ending in a war between the knights of compassion and the henchmen of heartlessness.
All this to which effect? Validating an attitude that simply don't belong in an organized society. Is it worth it? Clearly, no.
I hold no grudge against him, quite the opposite, and I don't think he deserves any punishment.
I wouldn't even try to judge him, so I wouldn't know what to do with these mitigating circumstances.
I think allowing him to go on like he did for more than two years would at best maintain the illusion that he can get away with his issues instead of working to address them.
Assuming you manage to handle the situation on LT, what about the rest of the world? You can't bend social reality around him. Validating his behaviour on this site would only work against any attempt at improving it in a reality in which it most likely causes him a lot of trouble and pain, and over which nobody here has any control.
This might be a satisfactory solution for him and those willing to extend their compassion to him, but this is not my idea of helping people.
Hm, that sounds again like "black-and-white", "to be or not to be". Is that really the question? Do you think, empathy and clear rules is a contradiction? I don't think so. If you make a war between these positions, it is very exhausting, indeed.
Pierre, please, tell me: when did I support this position? I never was in favor of that "Groundhog Day"-solution! You have contributed very much here, thank you for that, but have you really read, what I have suggested? Now, I am sad and tired...
I personnally have been banned from a lot of sites, because I have a tendency to say what I think, which isn't in accordance with the "netiquette". I survived (these sites did too, probably). But on this one nobody cared to ban me yet, and I didn't feel the necessity to get banned, perhaps because the administrators are no "kapos" like elsewhere, and don't eagerly control every word you say, in order to sack you as fast as possible and thus prove that they detain the power (while actually, they just tremble at the idea that they could be taken to court by whistleblowers). The best thing would be to make one's own site and to be the only user of it, I guess.
Let’s be clear here, I never heard a word for which LT might have banned you (well, unless it was in idiomatic French), and editors and mods here are simply wonderful, and I love Pierre. However, the crux is Aaron - can he grow and benefit himself and others?
We do not know, but we do know that exclusion is a damaging way not to be used lightly. And recognizing this, Vera simply made a common sense appeal to let Aaron learn acceptable behavior without loosing acceptance.
I don't know about this particular case, but in general the best attitude when you meet somebody acting like an idiot is probably to ignore him, as long as he doesn't do you any real harm. "Passer pour un idiot aux yeux d'un imbécile est une volupté de fin gourmet", said Courteline.
I assure you it isn't. There are gradations in the response you can give to a transgression, or rather a series of transgressions. Being inflexible is rarely, if ever, the best move. However, you always have to choose between the immediate gratification of being the nice guy and the unpleasant task of inflicting frustration, in the hope setting some limits will prove beneficial in the long run. It's the fundamental problem of educating people. The French name of this particular case worker job is actually "éducateur spécialisé" ("specialized educator").
The problem is rather to lose your objectivity out of fondness for the kid. You simply cannot work with a kid to whom you can't say no.
I think I did. To be honest, what you propose seems very close to what actually happened these last two years. Aaron was treated with kindness. He was never bullied or ridiculed , as far as I can recall. Every problem was discussed both with him and among the staff. Much efforts were made to clear any possible misunderstanding and make the decision as transparent as possible. Many people went to great lengths to try and smooth the rough edges. I could name a few who wrote remarkable messages showing humanity, benevolence, consideration and subtlety. Most of it happened behind the scene though, as it should, and I only saw the editor part of it.
If your adorable kitty hissed and clawed, would you throw her out or would you try to understand and teach her the acceptable behavior? Now, this is a human child, who suffered plenty, so... punish or banish? Clearly, making him a novice-like status + disabling comments seems an appropriate punishment whereas a permanent banishment is more like your French guillotine.
We all know that Aaron has either Asperger's or another level of autism and wanted to make LT friendly for him. However, how can he expect to make friends when he calls people assholes, says he'll make their lives a personal hell and tends to not accept rules being enforced? That is exactly the point of (I guess I can speak in the names of) the Mods that have had to deal with his rants. I've been nothing but caring for him, but I can't just let him do as he pleases then come and say 'I have an issue' and we erase everything we do. Maria wished a Mod died of cancer and was raped, then one beautiful day she left a comment saying that she also had mental issues. That is no justification for bad behavior. If we let him come back it's as if we were burying our own rules and saying to every user who ever left the website that our rules have no worth. He was caring with a few, aggressive with most others.
It's perfectly evident to any one here that I've *always* been caring for Aaron, telling him that we know how he likes LT et al. but we have rules just like any other situation, either in real or virtual life, so he has to follow them. No one here holds a grudge against him, but, again, he hasn't give us any proof that he will change.
I couldn't agree more.
I would never call Aaron an idiot or anything of the sort. I think he had serious issues which drove him to behave in damaging and unacceptable ways, but I never questioned his intelligence. It's beside the point, in my opinion.
As for doing harm, his outbursts were clearly unacceptable. The GT translations he kept publishing were removed, as they should, and he reacted by pouring insults (and occasionally threats) on people, both in PM and on public pages. He also had a few personal enemies at which he would snipe at every occasion. No way this could have been overlooked.
thats sad.☹️
Maybe I'm slowly getting old and conservative, I don't know, and I have never accepted the classic gender roles, but when I read, how consequent the same dogmas are repeated again and again, I wonder, whether men (in general) are better in playing their war-games with their typical black-and-white patterns, and women in ensuring social relationships. In the whole world nowadays seems to exist only "yes or no", "poor or rich", "winners or losers". The demons of the last century are returning, with all their might. "Versus" instead of "variety" allover, outside and inside. Typical for periods of crisis, not a specific problem of LT itself, of course. And typical for a superficial digital world with its simple O-or-1-system. Quo vadis?
And maybe it's because I played in a band once. That can only succeed if you respond to your fellow players, pick up their impulses and develop them. This is how synergy and good music is created.
Jadis/Philippe wrote about a one-man-website. Yes, it is nice to live alone on an island to relax or reflect. And you can do it for a while. But then your soul begins to starve. No one deserves such a death, no one.
Even Aaron, who wrote to me today, regrets this hardening of the fronts and said that he did not send his insults as they reached the recipient.
Finally, as a fan of hip-hop, it could be possible that he has a "different" attitude to these expressions, which unfortunately does not turn out to be suitable for everyday use.
With all due respect, Vera, and you too, Deana, I think you might have formed a wrong notion of how things went. I see no black and white in the chain of events which led to Aaron's ban. It spanned two years or more, involving many people and hours of discussion. The ban is definitive alright, but the process that led to it was very gradual and carefully considered.
The very first rule of socialization is to learn and master the common codes. First of all, saying the magic words, at least until people know you well enough to be reasonably sure you didn't come here to steal their goats.
You can try attending a business meeting in a leopard g-string or using "go fuck a duck" to greet people, only don't go complaining about getting the cold shoulder or a bunch of fives.
That's not what I meant, you missunderstood me. Oh dear, is my English really so poor? I am speaking about the "black-and-white"-option regarding his membership, Pierre, not the process.The process was talking and discussions without concrete effects or consequences except some temporary and then a final ban. - Do you understand it now? To ban or not to ban! Nothing in between, no stop of the comment-function etc. - And that's the point here.
Can you remember Deanna's cat? "If you don't scratch you can stay, if you scratch I throw you into a pond, okay?" - Poor cat, it cannot understand this "language", so farewell pussy cat!
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hi peeps
Sooo cool! 💗😄👍
I think it's only wise to put a stop to a seriously damaging situation when constant calls to reason and displays of benevolence have failed for more than two years. Allowing one user to consistently violate all rules of posting and randomly bark "leck mir an Arsch" at people while hundreds of others are required to behave in a civilized manner is not acceptable.
Juan said it very well and I can only second him. Being unhappy or unlucky or sick or in pain is not a license to fuck about.
I don't think Deanna's cat metaphor fits here. The first degree equivalent would rather be "if you cannot repress the urge to throw insults at people nor bring yourself to follow a few simple rules after two years of constant reminding, you can't stay here". And I totally agree with that.
Again LT is an open environment, nothing like a secure institution where such transgressions, outbursts and shows of aggressivity are expected and can be contained.
One word about your use of "social death", "French guillotine", etc. I'd rather use that notion with a bit more care. I make no secret of my personal situation, and I think I can say a thing or two about what social death can mean. It goes beyond being banned from an Internet community, according to my personal experience. After you switch off your PC, it follows you in the street, in your shower, in your bed, in your dreams.
And you can "die" for far less than mightily pissing off quite a few people for a few years. The wrong Excel line turning red is quite enough for a lot of people. Or a professional burn-out. Or a godawful dysfunctional family. Or a mix of the three. Or sheer bad luck.
Last time I checked, you can't buy bread nor a paper at LT, nor sit at a terrace sipping coffee, nor share anyone's bed nor breakfast.
LT is a great place, but it's not the society, let alone the reality. So no, Aaron was not sentenced to any kind of death. He was banned from LT.
Pierre,
One of us hasn’t been outside for over a year, didn’t sip coffee on a terrace (or a balcony), one’s place in the society and reality isn’t as straightforward (and you know it). I was banned for a week and it was painful. And two years are insignificant in a young man’s life. My son became tolerable at 25. He’s wonderful now, but the bitter taste lingers so I understand all your points. There was the time when school wanted to expel him. I went there every week and appealed and appealed to the teachers and principle. But it was kids that solved it - they came and spoke on his behalf without being asked. I’m grateful to them all to this day because I’m certain that sense of belonging was vital.
Investing your life in an Internet community is a dangerous thing to do. I of all nolifes should know. Better make sure you can fit in before stepping through the looking glass, or the Queen of Hearts will have your head.
"If Aaron is reading all this, grow up! Put the past behind you! Don’t discount friendships you were offered to dwell on the past!
Ask for help - there are people who live for helping others. Keep translating and writing! Know that you can control your moods, your words, your happiness! Yes, happiness!"🌈💖🦄
That's it!
Respect and include your shadows. They're a part of you but there are not you at all in all.
And to all of us, i think we have to try it again and again and again. And we have to hope into a develop. That's life! In real and on LT.
Not only aaron has to learn a few leasons. Everyone is learning and aaron is also a teacher as well as each other person on this board. You can take a look of the problems or you can take a look of the chances or you can do booth. The final question is: are you take part of a solution or are you a part of the problem. Find your way and position! Every day of your life. What was yesterday the right don't must be the right thing for now or for tomorrow. The one thing that will be stable is transistion. Keep the chances and trust into the change.
🌈🌈🌈💖💖🦄🦄🦄
The highest result of education is tolerance. (Helen Keller)
Indeed. Tends to indicate the Internet and the world at large have yet to reach the highest degree of education.
Well, I wouldn't want this to turn into a quotation battle, or any kind of battle for that matter.
I feel deeply for Aaron, and even for Maria and even ANSH60, despite all the trouble he (and his gang of enraged groupies) dragged me through back when I was still a moderator.
Still, I think there are a few things that LT cannot allow to be challenged by anybody:
- respectful behaviour (or it will become the kind of garbage dump most social networks have long devolved into)
- real and original translation work (or it will become just another repository of illiterate nonsense, selling ringtones and porn for a living)
Aaron consistently undermined both these pillars. This is not about him, it's about LT protecting itself.
I hope with all my heart he will find a way to solve his issues. But as long as he hasn't, allowing him to come back here would amount to invalidate the very rules that make LT what it is.
Thank you, Seestern! 💗
"Liebe mich dann am meisten, wenn ich es am wenigsten verdient habe, denn dann brauche ich es am nötigsten."(Helen Keller)
https://gutezitate.com/zitate-bilder/zitat-liebe-mich-dann-am-meisten-we...
I just read everything and my only answer are these Songs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7r2JloxCT0&list=PLqP51QGUencBleZpBKCTnS...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ruxeGYLlxs&list=PLqP51QGUencBleZpBKCTnS...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpMQeqoFayk&list=PLqP51QGUencBleZpBKCTnS...
Don't listen exactly on the Lyrics just interpret them on this situation here and think about it
Thank You
Lazar, we can see when you make new accounts. All further accounts will continue to be cleaned up, your content removed and any that has already been added will be removed or edited, authorship removed. You are not welcome, you know exactly why. Thread closed.
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