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New language Walloon (Borain)

23 posts / 0 nouveau(x)
Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011
Pending moderation

Hello,

i was wondering,

there is no Walloon in the language choice, as a matter of fact, it exists several sorts of walloon,
Around Charleroi for example, it is the Borain, around Liège the Liégeois,
Walloon was "born" between the 8th and the 12th centuries from the remnants of the Latin language brought to belgian regions by soldiers, merchants and settlers from Rome

Thx

Moderator sapiens sapiens
Inscrit·e le: 05.04.2012

Hi!

Actually there is one category for Walloon, despite being very small (5 translations and 1 song). Its contents can be accessed here: https://lyricstranslate.com/en/language/walloon

If you want Borain to be added, then we would ask you to provide some content (a couple of lyrics and translations) - after that, we can ask the Admins to add this new language.

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

Nice,
i couldn't find it,

well Walloon is a recent name given to all those roman languages from the region, it is called Walloon because of the name of the region,
But there are several dinstinct languages, like Liégeois, namurois, borain in this case
there is no common language named walloon as such, even if everybody refers to it as walloon.
I mean if we would want to do it correctly, we should maybe specify what kind of walloon this would be

and name should look like that Walloon (Liégeois), walloon (Namurois), Walloon (Borain) for example.

Well i could surely arrange some translations from Walloon (Borain) to French for example, and in the other way around.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Inscrit·e le: 16.02.2011
EnrixosfromParis wrote:

Nice,
i couldn't find it,

well Walloon is a recent name given to all those roman languages from the region, it is called Walloon because of the name of the region,
But there are several dinstinct languages, like Liégeois, namurois, borain in this case
there is no common language named walloon as such, even if everybody refers to it as walloon.
I mean if we would want to do it correctly, we should maybe specify what kind of walloon this would be

and name should look like that Walloon (Liégeois), walloon (Namurois), Walloon (Borain) for example.

Well i could surely arrange some translations from Walloon (Borain) to French for example, and in the other way around.

Thank you for that information.
Could you then check which Waloon languages those texts are in which are in our category?

However, according to Wikipedia, those are just dialects of Waloon (although it's of course not really possible to draw a line between what is a dialect and what is a language). Just because there is no main dialect that doesn't mean that it would be an issue for them to share one category.
Actually, that would be the case for a lot of our categories here, especially for those categories of dialect groups of languages. I mean, for my native dialect for example (a specific form of Rhinehessian), our proper category here is "German (central dialects)", which includes tons of sub-dialects, which do share some common ancestor dialect (more or less), but none of which would be the main dialect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_language#Dialects

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011
Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Inscrit·e le: 16.02.2011

@EnrixosfromParis: Thanks, I could ask the admins to add Picard to the list.
According to Wikipedia, it's a dialect of French. It would be the first French dialect here to get a category. Are there other dialects or dialect groups of it that might warrant a category? I ask so we may perhaps group some of them together instead of adding a category for every single sub-dialect.

Regarding Waloon, I think it's fine to have one category for all its varieties for now.

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

Well as far as i know,
Picard is already regrouping many sub-dialects from each part of Picardie, and Chtimi from the bottom north is also included
there is this nice map from Wikipédia indicating the main dialects in France and around its boarders
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langues_régionales_ou_minoritaires_de_Fran...

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Inscrit·e le: 16.02.2011

Thanks, that's helpful.

Well, for German dialects (which probably would be the language with the most sub-categories here), we have 6 dialect categories. So I would say that roughly that should be the most we get for French dialect categories as well, not including however really distinct languages.

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

well Germany is a young country in comparison with France, and dialects are stronger today
but we also have a lot of distinct dialects.

Breton is very specific and was imported from Great Britain, as for normand which is a mix of latin and scandinavian origins.
Alsacian and francique both have roots before german was even spoken there, but more similar to dialects in southwestern Germany

for the rest, i could do some research if needed Regular smile

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

Hi,

any news about adding the picard?

Thx

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Inscrit·e le: 16.02.2011

Sorry, have been quite busy recently, starting a new job and all.

And I had been hoping to get input by other people who, unlike me, actually speak French.

Gonna suggest Picard to the admins. But as I said, it would be best if we had some idea which French dialects would need categories so we can maybe group them together in order not to make too many dialect categories.

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

All right,
so to start,

***there is this blue colour,
i guess we could group it Under the name of Arpitan, because this language feets perfectly the blue zone, between Switzerland, north Italy, part of France
Arpitan is a Roman language and regroups all the dialects spoken in the blue zone
That would make one group, but

As for what Wikipédia says, this is a distinct language, that means this is no french dialect.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoprovençal

***there is the breton already existing on LT, this comes from celtic languages, and is no french dialect

***Basque at the frontier with Spain, is no french dialect, this is a very specific language, with unknown roots.

***As i said last time, Francique and alsacian, north east are two languages having been there before german was even spoken, but are to be related with "german dialects" languages from this area. Also one cannot say this is french dialects.

***As for the South France this is named generally Occitan or Langue d'oc, (the red zone) but this regroups a lot of dialects
With 6 main dialects
-Auvergnat
-Limousin
-Vivaro-Alpin
-Gascon (Aranais)
-Langedocien (could be linked with catalan)
-Provençal (Nissart)

Please refer to :
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan

***As for the rest in the north, this is called Langue d'oïl,( the green and yellow zone) eventhough there are now differencies.
With 18 dialects:
-Gallo
-Normand
-Poitevin-Saintongeais
-Mayennais
-Angevin
-Sarthois
-Tourengeau
-Berrichon
-Orléanais
-Percheron
-Bourbonnais
-Bourguignon-Morvandiau
-Franc-comtois
-Lorrain
-Champenois
-Francilien
-Picard
-Wallon

Please refer to:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langue_d%27oïl

Of course those are already simplified to main dialects, not listing all the smaller differencies between each city, or regions.

According to Wikipédia, the name given in the 12th century to this language is franceis which gave français. Although all those "langue d'oïl" dialects have a latin origin, at the 12th century it had already Evolved in each region separately. It seems the french finds its origin in the Francien (here Francilien), and has expended to all french territories because this was the king's domain, slowly becoming prédominent over the other dialects.

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

In this map, you can see the zone considered as French, in this case french, and the french dialects would be reduced to the area where
Langue d'oïl is spoken, it corresponds merely to the Celtic and Belgium Gaules Drew by Jules Cesar
other dialects from France (included the Arpitan) not being related with the modern french itself, eventhough it is spoken on the french territory
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan#/media/File:Europe_Continuum.gif

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

One could already create those that have no link with french language

Breton (is already created)
Basque (is already created)
Arpitan (has to be created)
Francique and alsacien could be added as German dialects, or french dialects with germanic roots, but then we will have doubles, because francique is to be related with schwabisch in South west Germany for example

Monégasque could be deleted and associated with Provençal for example

And maybe we could start with the most important french dialects, like Picard, Normand, Lorrain, Champenois, Poitevin, Bourguignon, langedocien,
or just wait that someone makes the request? or do we have to create them all now?

By the way, why can't we add them all, i mean all, when there is Monégasque in the list? Monégasque is only spoken in the city of Monaco.

you know this is just a mini data to be stored, and if not, this means this is a language of its own, having a dynamic

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Inscrit·e le: 16.02.2011

Thanks for these summaries!

Alsacien could be counted as Alemannic dialect, even if it might differ much from most such by the influence of French.
Francique (more commonly called Lorraine Franconian) seems to be a group of West Central German dialects (so it would fit in our category of Central German dialects which already includes both East Central and West Central German dialects with the exception of Kölsch and Berlinerisch which have their own categories).

Monégasque is in the list? That's strange. It seems to be a dialect of Ligurian? So I suppose we could rename the category to that.

We don't have to create the categories all simultaneously. Normally we create a language category if there are at least 3 songs/translations for it.
Nevertheless, I would like to avoid having too many small categories, therefore my suggestion to group those dialects that are closely related together into a category.

That would mean (counting only the Romance languages):
Occitan (already has a category)
Franco-Provençal
Langues d'oïl (the recently added Picard category could be renamed to that)

So there would be only 3 categories. Those categories could later be split up if they get lots of content.

EDIT: Okay, now I noticed that also Walloon is a Langue d'oïl...
Is it really necessary to have separate categories for Walloon and Picard? Are they mutually intellegible?

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

Nice,

This seems fair Regular smile

Yes Walloon is composed of Namurois and liégeois, and is different from the picard spoken in the west although both are roman languages.
For the walloon, we already have a lot of content
some songs are in Walloon picard or borain, others in Namurois and liégeois.
For the picard >more content is on the way
for the other langues d'oïl languages, i don't know much as for now.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Inscrit·e le: 16.02.2011

Okay, then I'll ask for Monégasque to be renamed to Ligurian, and for the Picard category to be renamed to "Other Langues d'oïl" or just "Langues d'oïl" (to include all except for French and Walloon).

Do we have any content in Franco-Provençal?

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

I would let Picard out of "Other Langues d'oïl" as well, as i said, content is on the way,
anyway it is already created, no need to delete it to create later again.

For franco-provençal, i would have to check, but i am already on adding picard content right now Regular smile

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Inscrit·e le: 16.02.2011

Hm, how many songs in other Langues d'oïl do we have?

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011
Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

All i could find for now,
but i already found a link to a lot of local songs, maybe i can find some in other oïl dialects.

Jack's Smirking Revenge
Inscrit·e le: 24.12.2011

As well as monégasque, there is luxembourgish, it could be grouped with the german dialects from this area
https:// en.wikipedia org/wiki/Luxembourgish

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Inscrit·e le: 16.02.2011
EnrixosfromParis wrote:

As well as monégasque, there is luxembourgish, it could be grouped with the german dialects from this area
https:// en.wikipedia org/wiki/Luxembourgish

Technically yes, but I suppose if Picard has its own category then Luxembourgish can have it as well.
The "German dialects from that area" would here be the category of Central German dialects, which spans from Saxony in the east to Rhine Land Palatine in the west and is far from being a single dialect: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Mitteldeutsche...
Most songs we have in that category are close enough to the standard for me to understand them easily, but I don't think I would understand Luxembourgish that readily.

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