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Сложное дополнение (Complex Object)

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<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015
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Сложное дополнение (Complex Object) - это формальная конструкция, которая употребляется только после определенных глаголов, чтобы избежать придаточного предложения с еще одним подлежащим и сказуемым, которое надо ставить в условное наклонение. Короче, сделать одно предложение вместо двух (экономит типографскую краску, картриджи и голосовые связки Regular smile )Complex Object I would like (to expect, want, wait for, know) somebody to do smth.
I'd like you to translate this poem - Я бы хотел, чтобы ты перевел это стихотворение.
I never expected him to come.  - В жизни не рассчитывал, что он придет.
Т.е. рассчитывает один, а делает другой. Это позволяет нам не строить второго предложения со сказуемым в условном наклонении. Два в одном. Первый глагол стоит в нужном времени (I expect, have always expected, will expect and so on.), дальше местоимение или существительное как есть + нужный глагол в неопределенной форме.
Так же как мы говорим, I'm waiting for him/her/us, them, you (Я жду его\её.....), точно такую же форму местоимения мы ставим в конструкцию вместо somebody.
They are waiting for me to call. - Они ждут, что я позвоню.
Эта же конструкция может носить пассивный характер, т.е. Хотеть, чтобы что-то было сделано. Тогда она принимает следующий видwould like (to expect, want, wait for, know) smth.( to be ) done
They want their house (to be) painted. - Они хотят, чтобы их дом покрасили. (to be можно употребить, а можно опустить. )
Somebody/something - взамозаменяемы по смыслу. 
I know the letter to arrive tomorrow - Я знаю, что письмо придет завтра.
He expects me notified. - Он рассчитывает, что меня проинформируют.
Complex Object II (глаголы восприятия)
a) to see (hear/notice/watch/feel) somebody doing - Видеть (слышать.....) как кто-то что-то делает
I heard her speaking on the phone - Я слышал как она разговаривает по телефону.
I hope I'll never see them doing that again - Надеюсь, я никогда больше не увижу как они это делают.
b) to see (hear/notice/watch/feel) somebody do - Видеть (увидеть как кто-то что-то сделал)
The police noticed the suspect enter a bank - Полицейские заметили, что подозреваемый зашел в банк.
Форма doing соответствует ситуации, когда что-то происходит, а форма do, когда что-то произошло. Нужно "считать ситуацию", выбрать соответсвующую конструкцию и просто подставить свои данные в эту форму. Чистая математика. Regular smile
 

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/asm" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1313317">A.S.M</a>
Inscrit·e le: 31.10.2016

I heard her speaking on the phone

Надя а можно это предложение придаточным перевести типа I heard THAT she is speaking on the phone

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015

I heard that (how) she was speaking on the phone. (когда слышал, тогда и говорила). Только зачем? I heard her speaking on the phone - то же самое и легче воспринимается.

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<a href="/fr/translator/asm" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1313317">A.S.M</a>
Inscrit·e le: 31.10.2016

Просто, если кто не поймёт этой конструкции, они могут придаточным перевести, кстати ведь мы можем I heard her speaking on the phone перевести Я СЛЫШАЛ ЕЁ ГОВОРЯЩЕЙ ПО ТЕЛЕФОНУ. и это будет также верно.

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<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015

Это так и есть, Саша. Только это не русский язык. Русские так не говорят.

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<a href="/fr/translator/asm" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1313317">A.S.M</a>
Inscrit·e le: 31.10.2016

Да это я просто прикалываюсь. Надя вы ВЕДАЕТЕ английский!!!

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015

Ну да, моя мамочка, которая ни слова по-английски не знает, кроме одной фразы, периодически проверяет мои знания.

-Nadia, how are you?
-I'm good, mom

Тогда она улыбается и говорит: "Вижу, английский ты знаешь!"

Обрыдаться можно Wink smile

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/asm" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1313317">A.S.M</a>
Inscrit·e le: 31.10.2016

А я ведаю, что YOU ARE GOOD WOMAN

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<a href="/fr/translator/asm" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1313317">A.S.M</a>
Inscrit·e le: 31.10.2016

Надя, если бы вы были на "Одноклассниках" вы бы стали украшением моей страницы.

Senior Member
<a href="/fr/translator/antonwinter" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1310366">AntonWinter</a>
Inscrit·e le: 08.10.2016

That почти всегда опускают как в разговорах, так и в книгах/песнях.

Ironic Iron ֍ The Black Sun
<a href="/fr/translator/st-sol" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1315904">St. Sol</a>
Inscrit·e le: 20.11.2016

Replying "I'm good" to "How are you?" instantly betrays a non-native speaker, sorry.

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<a href="/fr/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Inscrit·e le: 16.12.2017

Так вот как оно называется!

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<a href="/fr/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Inscrit·e le: 16.12.2017
A.S.M wrote:

Надя, если бы вы были на "Одноклассниках" вы бы стали украшением моей страницы.

На «Одноклассниках» позволяют украшать страницы?
Надя, требуйте авторского права! Wink smile

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015

Can the Pyramids speak? Oh, I didn't know that. But if they can
they should definitely speak the language dating back in centuries. So I'm not surprised. Wink smile

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<a href="/fr/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Inscrit·e le: 01.07.2018

IMHO, there is a nuance between 1. "I heard her speaking on the phone" and 2. "I heard that she was speaking on the phone'.
In the first sentence, the focus is set on "her" (question : what was she doing ?), while in the 2nd one, it is set on "heard" (question : what did I hear ?) In French, we have no strictly similar construtions, as far as I know.
"I heard her speaking on the phone" > je l'ai entendue parler au téléphone, je l'ai entendue qui parlait au téléphone ("j'ai entendu qu'elle parlait au téléphone" would match "I heard that she was speaking on the phone")
"I never expected him to come" > je ne me suis jamais attendu à ce qu'il vienne (emphasis on "s'attendre"), je n'ai jamais attendu de lui qu'il vienne (emphasis on "lui" = him).
In French, there are 2 different constructions :
# attendre quelque chose, attendre que quelque chose arrive
# s'attendre à quelque chose, s'attendre à ce que quelque chose arrive
The meaning is not exactly the same, it the 2nd case it would rather mean "to be aware that something might happen" (1st case : to expect, to await).
 
It's very interesting to analyse the different kinds of verbs in different languages. Usually your first idea is that "a verb expresses an action". Then you think a little and add : "or a state" (ex: to be, to stay, to remain). Or a change in state, a progress (to become, to explode). (And if you think further, you might wonder why "a walk", for ex, is not a verb, and yet expresses an action).
 
But what about "to let" (ex: let him go ?) And about modals ? (I doubt that she will come, I believe that it's right, this should not happen...). And about verbs like "frieren" in German (mir friert's = I'm cold, j'ai froid, мне холодно). Not to mention he verbs used as auxiliaries ("je me suis cassé la jambe" = I broke my leg; "j'ai pris le train" = I took a train, Я сел на поезд ; I will go tomorrow = Я уеду завтра). And verbs expressing an action done by someboy else: "j'ai fait contresigner le document" > I had the document countersigned (by somebody) (factitives)...
And many other syntactic-semantic beautiful things in various languages. Regular smile
 

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015

Jadis, hi.
I see your concern. But if a person doesn't know Complext Object then there are other ways to say the same. (I answered Sasha's question).
Anyway, I was specifically asked to explain Complex Object, which I did. Do you want me to explain English grammar from top to bottom? Oh, yes, on the basis of Comparative Linguistics. I can, of course, but I'll take a pass this time. But you may. What stops you? I'll be glad if you take over.

Good luck! Wink smile

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Inscrit·e le: 19.07.2018

Yes, please. A book (one) on English, Russian, French for dummies would be great

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015

That's not for dummies. My explanations were worked out for normal people years ago because textbook authors think everybody should be a rocket scientist in linguistics.

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/blacksea4ever" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1390089">BlackSea4ever</a>
Inscrit·e le: 19.07.2018

We have here many books titled "for dummies" - it doesn't mean for stupid, but that explanations are easily understandable...just like you said yours are (in total agreement)

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<a href="/fr/translator/knee427" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Inscrit·e le: 05.04.2012

I don't speak any Slavic language, but the content of comments here made me think it's a thread worth bring marked as Sticky. Do you all agree?

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Inscrit·e le: 01.07.2018

I savagely apologize for having interrupted the Master of Knowledge, I have nothing against the present topic, on the contrary. Sure, I would have some remarks, like for example :
- if there is something like mathematics in it (which could indeed be considered), then it would be interesting to give an equivalent formula. Actually, there would be at least 2 formulas, because there is one construction including the preposition "to", and another one without that preposition, depending of the (kind of) verb used.
- it would be interesting to semantically characterize the verbs belonging to either list, and it's not completely evident : one easily understands that "hear, feel, see, watch" belong to the same semantic category... but "let" and "make" belong to a different category, and yet they admit the same construction 'without "to"). "Want, expect, suppose, believe..." belong to another semantic category (and need "to"). How would those categories be called ? Are there more verbs admitting the same construction in these categories? Which ones?

BTW, I don"t think that this construction only helps to save ink or saliva. It mainly makes the syntax simpler, so you won't have to rack your brains about concordance of times (and moods!) for ex. (which complies to different rules in Russian and in French, BTW - not to mention that certain forms are obsolete in French - but not quite in Portuguese for ex.) : je veux que tu viennes (subjunctive present) # je voulais que tu vinsses (past subjunctive, only nobody speaks like that any more - but in Portuguese I think they still do ; nowadays we simply say "je voulais que tu viennes").

As to "The police noticed the suspect enter a bank", I take your word for it, but I can't remember I ever myself encountered that sentence. Perhaps specific for some countries or regions, or some styles (administrative ? journalistic ?) Is it frequent ? Perhaps my doubt comes from the fact that this would be incorrect in French ("remarquer le suspect pénétrer" is impossible, we would say "remarquer que le suspect avait pénétré", or "remarquer le suspect alors qu'il pénétrait / pénétrant" (if "entering"). While with other verbs, like "to see", it would be different : voir le suspect pénétrer (or : pénétrant) (=entering ; but not "avoir pénétré") ; (with "de") : soupçonner le suspect de pénétrer, d'avoir pénétré, de s'apprêter à pénétrer)

So, clearly, for such grammatical points, we should 1/ take semantics into account, 2/ ask help from comparative grammar. Otherwise it would look like those rules the kids learn at school and repeat "как попугаи", understanding nothing about it and not even trying to. Wink smile

(Edit) Oh, and I forgot, 0/ draw diagrams.

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<a href="/fr/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
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"для чайников" ? Regular smile
 

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015

Jadis, это объяснение для русскоговорящих друзей, некоторые из которых не знают английский достаточно хорошо, чтобы вникать в Ваши перлы. Категория Slavic languages. Для французов я бы объясняла, исходя из логики французского языка. Так что извольте говорить по-русски, чтобы все Вас понимали. Если сможете, конечно. Regular smile

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<a href="/fr/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Inscrit·e le: 16.12.2017
Alma Barroca wrote:

I don't speak any Slavic language, but the content of comments here made me think it's a thread worth bring marked as Sticky. Do you all agree?

I do not!
Comments are not sticky at all, if we think of the same “sticky”

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<a href="/fr/translator/knee427" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Inscrit·e le: 05.04.2012

Emm... It actually means that this thread would be moved to the first ones in the forum room (that means: it would be among the first users would see if they reached this specific room) and would not be moved down/lost with time.

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Inscrit·e le: 16.12.2017
Alma Barroca escribió:

Emm... It actually means that this thread would be moved to the first ones in the forum room (that means: it would be among the first users would see if they reached this specific room) and would not be moved down/lost with time.

Oh, now all of this sounds sticky
Moved to the first ones? And there are seconds? Sounds like a secret society to me

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<a href="/fr/translator/knee427" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Inscrit·e le: 05.04.2012

Not wanting to deviate from the main topic here as, as I claimed, I speak no Slavic language. Check https://lyricstranslate.com/en/forums/members-only for instance - the first threads there were marked as 'Sticky' and haven't been moved even though some haven't been updated in an year.

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<a href="/fr/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Inscrit·e le: 16.12.2017

Надя, при всей нашей взаимной неприязни, я должна вам отдать должное и признать, что такие блоги (или как будет правильно?) очень пользительны для мирных слушателей. Премного благодарны

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<a href="/fr/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Inscrit·e le: 16.12.2017
Alma Barroca escribió:

Not wanting to deviate from the main topic here as, as I claimed, I speak no Slavic language. Check https://lyricstranslate.com/en/forums/members-only for instance - the first threads there were marked as 'Sticky' and haven't been moved even though some haven't been updated in an year.

The main topic was about English grammar
And please enlighten me why are you are marking threads “sticky” ?

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<a href="/fr/translator/knee427" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Inscrit·e le: 05.04.2012
Alma Barroca wrote:

It actually means that this thread would be moved to the first ones in the forum room (that means: it would be among the first users would see if they reached this specific room) and would not be moved down/lost with time.

If we Mods think that the content of a thread will help people, it can be marked as 'Sticky' so it remains visible frontpage. From what I could understand, Nadia is explaining a grammar topic in a very didactic way, so I thought it could be 'Sticky' to help more users.

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<a href="/fr/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Inscrit·e le: 16.12.2017

I am sorry, we Simple People, didn’t even know what ‘Sticky’ means. Grateful for enlightening us, unhallowed

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/asm" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1313317">A.S.M</a>
Inscrit·e le: 31.10.2016
Igeethecat wrote:

Надя, при всей нашей взаимной неприязни, я должна вам отдать должное и признать, что такие блоги (или как будет правильно?) очень пользительны для мирных слушателей. Премного благодарны

Машуль, Полезны.

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<a href="/fr/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
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A.S.M wrote:
Igeethecat wrote:

Надя, при всей нашей взаимной неприязни, я должна вам отдать должное и признать, что такие блоги (или как будет правильно?) очень пользительны для мирных слушателей. Премного благодарны

Машуль, Полезны.

Пользительны, Сашуль, очень даже. Ты таблетку то не очень слушай

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<a href="/fr/translator/asm" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1313317">A.S.M</a>
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Igeethecat wrote:
A.S.M wrote:
Igeethecat wrote:

Надя, при всей нашей взаимной неприязни, я должна вам отдать должное и признать, что такие блоги (или как будет правильно?) очень пользительны для мирных слушателей. Премного благодарны

Машуль, Полезны.

Пользительны, Сашуль, очень даже. Ты таблетку то не очень слушай

Какой-то странный у вас русский!!! Ах, да он уже иностранный!!!

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<a href="/fr/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Inscrit·e le: 01.07.2018

I'm afraid not. True, I once wrote an article on French Wikipedia about Koryak language (and its grammar), all the information I found in a Russian book written by a Russian linguist (А.Н. Жукова). Can you speak Koryak ?
 
(Edit) Oh, in case it would help, I also made a Swadesh list for Koryak, thanks to Zhukova's Russian-Koryak dictionary. With API representation.
 

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<a href="/fr/translator/asm" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1313317">A.S.M</a>
Inscrit·e le: 31.10.2016

Надя, во французском тоже есть такое.
Инфинитивное предложение
Je vois des gens me sourire, но можно сказать и так Je vois que des gens me souris

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<a href="/fr/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Inscrit·e le: 01.07.2018

Правда, только "je vois des gens qui me sourient" Wink smile (or : que des gens me sourient, but as I said, the focus is different then, it would rather be an answer to the question "What do I see/notice ?")
J'entends les oiseaux chanter (Я слышу, как птицы поют), и т.д.
But we have nothing like "They are waiting for me to call" or "I never expected him to come." For "I'd like you to translate this poem", one might say "J'aimerais vous voir traduire ce poème". It doesn't mean that I would like to watch somebody while he/she would be translating, rather "I would like to have its translation made by you". It's subtle indeed...
 
We have another strange use of infinitive, actually we don't use it much but it it still understood :
"Grenouilles aussitôt de sauter dans les ondes ;
Grenouilles de rentrer en leurs grottes profondes."
(Jean de La Fontaine)
It means something like : А вот лягушки прыгают в воды / Вот лягушки возвращаются в свои глубокие пещеры.
It's called "infinitif de narration" (narrative infinitive).
 

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015
Quote:

If we Mods think that the content of a thread will help people, it can be marked as 'Sticky' so it remains visible frontpage. From what I could understand, Nadia is explaining a grammar topic in a very didactic way, so I thought it could be 'Sticky' to help more users.

Juan, thank you for your kind words.

In fact, I could write a number of didactic threads on English grammar in English for non-English natives. Out of my teaching experience and through reading the translations in here I see the weaker points. I feel deep sympathy for people who are trying to learn the language on their own. English courses are not comprehensive, tutors are expensive, grammar books are too sophisticated and written for rocket scientists. What should a common person do to get the language work?

But whenever such a thread appears users start bitching instead of asking questions if something isn't clear yet. And that's discouragingly embarrassing.

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015
Quote:

Надя, при всей нашей взаимной неприязни.....

Это ты, Маша, о чем? Я же по твоей просьбе все это написала. Лично у меня вообще нет никакой неприязни. Просто Сашу не доставай без дела.

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<a href="/fr/translator/knee427" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Inscrit·e le: 05.04.2012

I understand you, you're right.

Not sure if when you registered we still had it, but in the past we had an 'Article' room which we often used to provide grammar lessons of several languages (I myself added a couple of stuff regarding Portuguese) [though it was very rarely used]. As it's now defunct, forum threads seem to be the best choice. Though we can also use https://lyricstranslate.com/en/resources, but IMHO having room for it in LT domain helps more than external links...

Anyway, thank you for your work and your kind help around Regular smile

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<a href="/fr/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Inscrit·e le: 01.07.2018

I had a look at this page , on the same topic, and something remains unclear to me. They mention the verbs "to want, to expect, to know, to suppose, to consider, to believe. After these verbs the particle 'to' is used before the infinitive." Are these the only verbs allowing complex objects or not (introduced by "to"), nobody knows, you just get the list and learn it by heart and ask no questions.
OK, but what about :
* I told him to leave his little sister alone.
* I forbid them to hang around here.
These sentences look very much like "I expected him to paint the walls green"... only "to tell" and "to forbid" don't belong to the list. Why is it so ? Why will we talk about "complex object" in one case, and not in the other one ? Because I didn't learn the list by heart?
Perhaps because the usual construction of these verbs is unalike ?
* I expect, that he will paint the walls green
* I'm telling him that he should leave his sister alone. Ah, this is different, one needs to add "him" after "telling" (because usually you tell something to somebody, I guess). Is it possible to say "I'm telling that he should leave his sister alone" ? I think so, but the meaning is different.
* I forbid you to do that : this one seems to require an infinitive, and BTW it is the same in Russian : я запрещаю вам делать это. What about "I forbid that they would do that" ?
In the case of "to prevent", the construction is different again :
* I prevented him from buying this car > here we use "from", that's clearly why one can't say "I prevented him to buy this car". Ha! But there is also another construction : "How do I prevent my username appearing in the online user listings?" This would not look bad as "How do I prevent my username to appear in listings?" Complex object ? Admitted ? Denied ?
So, anyway, the understanding of the rule doesn't seem evident.
 
In the case of the "complex object" without "to", it's easier for us to get it, because it's similar to French. Besides "to let" and "to make" (are there other ones? who knows?), it seems that only the verbs of perception are concerned... but only through eye and ear, because for the rest of it, it seems to be the general verb "to feel". This clearly indicates a hierarchy in perception. And BTW, like in French, "to feel" can mean a physical perception (a burn, for example), or an... (inner) feeling. Actually, in French, "sentir" can even mean "to smell" (Je sens une odeur de jasmin = I can smell a fragrance of jasmine).
So here are plenty of questions... although I don't expect a clear and definitive answer. It is so because it is so, I guess... Whatchutalkingabout smile
 

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015

Jadis, you mix up two things. In Complex Object there are two doers and two actions expressed with one subject and one predicate.

Quote:

How do I prevent my username to appear in listings

How do I prevent my username from appearing in listings.

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015

Jadis, I specifically made this explanation for Russian users. If you want it specified in English then it would look a bit different. English grammarians, as a rule, don't set aside Complex Object as a separate phenomenon. So it's quite useless to discuss it in the format of English. But Russian users often come across this definition in Russian books on English grammar. And they find it confusing. So I made it a point to explain to Russian users what is meant by this phenomenon. That's why this thread comes under Slavic languages.

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Inscrit·e le: 01.07.2018

" I told him to leave his little sister alone." : 2 doers, 2 actions, 1 subject, 1 predicate.
"Prevent to appear" : 62,000 results on Google...

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Inscrit·e le: 01.07.2018

Actually, I can't quite understand why a point of English grammar should be reserved to Russian readers, it interests everybody. I'm not Russian and I also find it (partly) confusing. The fact that it is called "Complex Object" or by another name doesn't change the reality of the grammatical fact, and this concerns English grammar. Of course, comparing these constructions with Russian and other constructions could be quite enlightening, IMHO, and so would it be to to understand the conditions and the origin of the phenomenon (BTW, also in a diachronic perspective : how old are these forms ? And which ones are very commonly used, or are rare or rather literary?)
So : plenty of questions, as you can see... Whatchutalkingabout smile
 

Editor
<a href="/fr/translator/sandring" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1263066">sandring</a>
Inscrit·e le: 18.10.2015

Juan, I don't think this should be pinned down because it refers to the term which is not supported by most of the international grammar schools. But Russian users come across it and feel confused. So this thread is to spare them this confusion. So the thread has a limited value.

Jadis, Complex Object is part of a much wider topic. What happens if a verb is followed by another verb (sometimes with a pronoun in between) Actually, they all may be classified under a few groups. but the truth is that the pattern just has to be memorized anyway. To your relief, I can say that if a verb is followed by a preposition it takes the -ing form with the exception of "to go on doing/to do". Very few verbs may have two patterns and change their meaning at that. (to remember to do/doing, to stop, need, try, regret, remind of/remind)

So for international users, this topic should be taken up from quite a different angle.

I hope I've answered your question, Jadis.

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Inscrit·e le: 01.07.2018

Thank you. I think the pattern itself is not that difficult to memorize, the problem is rather « when, after which verbs, can I / should I use it ? » Is there an exhaustive list or is it undefined, are there verbs tolerating « more or less » this pattern, and why ?
 
If we leave aside the 2nd case (infinitive without « to », which seems to me something quite different), I would say that the prototype of the pattern is probably : « I want (somebody TO do something) ». But :
 
« I » is not necessarily « I ». It could be : we, you, they, Peter, somebody, the nation, my cat (let's say an animated subject). But of course, in poetry for example, it could also be « a tree, the stone, the landscape... » (but these would be images).
 
« want » is not necessarily « want ». It could be : expect, wait for, would like... (and more?), expressing a desire, a wish, a will. But also : know, consider, believe... (and more?), expressing (supposed) knowledge of reality. These are subjective modalities, meaning an attitude towards a (real or supposed) situation. In French, we usually call the 1st one « modalité boulique » and the 2nd one « modalité épistémique », but whatever the appellation, these are universal concepts.
 
Now for the embedded predicate:
 
« somebody » could be a pronoun, a noun, etc. Normally it should be different from the main subject (« somebody else ») – yet one could imagine « myself », for ex. It should normally be animated and in accordance with the action represented by the next verb, but one could imagine for example : I want the stars to fall from the sky over you, I want the sea to cry your name... Imagination has no limits.
 
« do » would rather be an action, but it also could be a state (ex : to remain) ; probably more possibilities too.
 
« something » is the direct object complement of « do »... in case the verb (and the idea) needs such a complement. It could be a complement of place (ex : I want you to stay here), or other. It could be nothing at all (ex : I want you to shut up).
 
So we understand the reason for the name « complex object ». It is complex because the object is itself a predicate (grammatically speaking), and this predicate reflects a virtual action or situation the mind can imagine (semantically speaking). I first imagine that action or situation, and then I apply a modality to it : is this (action/situation) desirable or known to the main actant ? (More modalities possible ? to be examined).
 
And a general semantical formula for the whole thing could be :
Animated Modality (Eventuality)
 
or grammatically speaking:
Subject_1 Modal_Verb (Subject_2 TO Verb (Complements))
 
It should be noted that Subject-2 is not mandatory either, in this case we can use a passive form :
I want (the floor TO be swept)
(whoever would sweep it)
 
But what is striking in this pattern is its expressivity. When I read « I want you to sweep the floor », even if the embedded predicate is « you sweep floor », with no particular focus neither on « you », « sweep » nor « floor », yet it looks like the famous American slogan : « I want YOU for U.S. Army » (which could be rewritten : I want YOU to join U.S. Army). The accent seems to be strongly put on « you », just like on the poster, the finger is pointing at YOU, and the word « YOU » itself is written in bigger, red letters.
 
So IMHO, this pattern also gives expressivity to the sentence, it's a question of style. But anyway, one should not stick to the mere grammatical approach, because anyway this is not absolute, grammar is nothing but a constructed system aiming at a representation of the reality of spoken language (and hence, of thinking). Grammar changes when needed, just like biological taxonomies change with time (when the platypus was discovered in Australia, many scholars exclaimed that it was impossible, it was a fake, because it didn't fit the taxonomies they had built...)
 

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Inscrit·e le: 16.12.2017
sandring wrote:
Quote:

Надя, при всей нашей взаимной неприязни.....

Это ты, Маша, о чем? Я же по твоей просьбе все это написала. Лично у меня вообще нет никакой неприязни. Просто Сашу не доставай без дела.

Ну спасибо, Надя. Я-то вообще-то просто полюбопытствовала, как дипломированный инженер-математик. But, well, I will take it as a compliment Regular smile

A Сашу я не достаю, а если у него к каждом n-ном переводе страдают либо смысл, либо грамматика, то ко мне какие претензии???

Oh, and BTW, а мы - на ты?

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/asm" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1313317">A.S.M</a>
Inscrit·e le: 31.10.2016
Igeethecat wrote:
sandring wrote:
Quote:

Надя, при всей нашей взаимной неприязни.....

Это ты, Маша, о чем? Я же по твоей просьбе все это написала. Лично у меня вообще нет никакой неприязни. Просто Сашу не доставай без дела.

Ну спасибо, Надя. Я-то вообще-то просто полюбопытствовала, как дипломированный инженер-математик. But, well, I will takeout as a credit Regular smile

A Сашу я не достаю, а если у него к каждом n-ном переводе страдают либо смысл, либо грамматика, то ко мне какие претензии???

Oh, and BTW, а мы - на ты?

Ага, сколько мне зла сделали и все равно я хорошая и пригожая. Мария вы молодец!!!

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/jadis" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1387945">Jadis</a>
Inscrit·e le: 01.07.2018

OK, nobody seems to be interested to really discuss the topic, although it was quite interesting. Too bad. Have a nice time.

Super Member
<a href="/fr/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Inscrit·e le: 16.12.2017
A.S.M wrote:
Igeethecat wrote:
sandring wrote:
Quote:

Надя, при всей нашей взаимной неприязни.....

Это ты, Маша, о чем? Я же по твоей просьбе все это написала. Лично у меня вообще нет никакой неприязни. Просто Сашу не доставай без дела.

Ну спасибо, Надя. Я-то вообще-то просто полюбопытствовала, как дипломированный инженер-математик. But, well, I will takeout as a credit Regular smile

A Сашу я не достаю, а если у него к каждом n-ном переводе страдают либо смысл, либо грамматика, то ко мне какие претензии???

Oh, and BTW, а мы - на ты?

Ага, сколько мне зла сделали и все равно я хорошая и пригожая. Мария вы молодец!!!

Сашуль, а сколько зла я тебе сделала? Ты ж никогда не говорил, только во благо посылал. 😲

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