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Jasny horyzont

Pewnego dnia odnajdziemy nasze głębie,
Pewnego dnia miłość ujmie piękno za rękę,
W dniu, w którym pieśń najbłahsza będzie pocałunkiem,
I każdy człowiek każdemu człowiekowi – bratem,
W dniu, w którym drzwi domów nie będzie się zamykać,
I zamki będą legendą, i serce wystarczy, by żyć…
W dniu, w którym każde słowo będzie znaczyć «kochać»,
W dniu, w którym dźwięk każdego słowa będzie życiem,
W dniu, w którym każde usta będą pieśnią,
W dniu, w którym przyjdziesz – przyszedłbyś na zawsze…
W dniu, w którym gołębiom naszym znów sypniemy ziarno…
I ja tego dnia oczekuję… dnia, kiedy mnie już nie będzie…
 
Traduction

Clair horizon

Un jour nous rencontrerons les profondeurs de notre âme,
Un jour, l'amour prendra la beauté par la main,
Le jour où la chanson la plus anodine sera un baiser,
Et où chaque homme sera un frère pour chaque autre homme,
Le jour où les portes des maisons ne seront plus bouclées,
Où les serrures ne seront plus que légende, où un cœur suffira pour vivre...
Le jour où chaque mot voudra dire « amour »,
Le jour où dans chaque mot résonnera la vie,
Le jour où chaque bouche sera une chanson,
Le jour où tu viendras – tu viendrais pour toujours...
Le jour où nous jetterons à nouveau du grain à nos colombes...
Et moi, ce jour-là, je l'attends... ce jour où je ne serai plus là...
 
Commentaires
AzaliaAzalia
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 13:17

Bonjour Jadis,

Merci beaucoup pour ta traduction. J'y ai deux choses à commenter:

1/ Je ne suis pas sûre si "abîmes" (dans la première ligne) soit le meilleur choix. En fait, je ne suis pas sûre de l'intention de l'auteur de ce texte en ce qui concerne le mot "głębie". Pour moi, dans le contexte, ce serait quelque chose plutôt positive, comme des profondeurs de nos âmes, de nos cœurs, etc. "Abîme" me fait penser à quelque désastre, quelque défaut, mais... comme j'ai dit, je ne suis pas sûre ce que l'auteur voulait dire. As-tu suivi la traduction anglaise ou ta première pensée ? En tout cas, je l'ai traduit (vers l'italien et vers l'espagnol) autrement.

2/ "Et où les châteaux seront devenus légende..."

Voilà, c'est une autre chose qui n'est pas très claire. Peut-être l'auteur a joué ici avec le double sens du mot "zamek", qui peut signifier "château", mais aussi "serrure" (le trou dans la porte où on introduit la clé). Je dois avouer que, quand j'ai traduit cette chanson en espagnol, dans ma première version, j'ai traduit cette frase aussi ayant les châteaux à l'ésprit, mais plus tard mon ami espagnol m'a fait changer l'avis en indiquant le contexte où on parle des portes que l'on ne devra plus fermer, donc... on pourra aussi oublier les serrures et les considérer "légende" (histoire).

Bon, ce sont seulement mes pensées, pas vraiment mes suggestions. En tout cas, merci encore une fois pour ton intérêt envers les chansons polonaises et ses traductions. J'espère que mon commentaire n'est pas écrit en "français approximatif" :P Je le parlais presque couramment il y a une trentaine d'années, mais c'est seulement à LT que j'ai recommencé à le pratiquer plus ou moins regulièrement après une longue pause.

Amicalement,
Agnieszka

JadisJadis
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 13:41

Merci pour ce commentaire détaillé, Agnieszka !
 
1/ Le mot "głębie" m'a aussi laissé perplexe, j'ai fait des recherches, mais effectivement "abîmes" ne doit pas être le bon terme, je vais encore réfléchir et modifier.
 
2/ Je crois que je me suis fait piéger par les zamki ! Pourtant je savais qu'en russe, замок ce n'est pas la même chose que замок, et maintenant que tu me le dis, oui, je pense que logiquement il s'agit bien de serrures, et pas de châteaux.  Je vais corriger.
 
Merci encore pour ton aide précieuse!

JadisJadis
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 13:59

Et hop ! C'est mieux comme ça ? :)
 
(Edit) J'ai aussi remplacé "pigeons" par "colombes", ça fait plus poétique...
 

AzaliaAzalia
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 14:08

Parfait... à moins qu'il ne s'agisse pas d' « âmes », mais disons que c'est ça, le sens.

JadisJadis
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 14:12

Je pense que cela signifie "nos profondeurs intérieures", "nos propres profondeurs", donc "les profondeurs de notre âme" ça devrait aller...

AzaliaAzalia
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 14:13

Oui, je crois que tu as raison.

IsraelWuIsraelWu    Ven, 02/08/2019 - 15:51

I think that the first job of a translator is to try and “see” the original language, preferably even to understand it. The words in the target language can be fit to the source language, but in the source language they are “casted in concrete” – you have to address them. I do not speak French but I do understand Polish. In my opinion both French translations are quite similar (especially if you would help her instead of jumping on the wagon and advertising “your translation”). Yours is a better French (are you surprised ?). You may ask how do I know. Well, I see the juggling of tenses and conditionals. I don’t understand the nuances, I couldn’t do it in French but I definitely can see it.
Both translations have the same mistake/misunderstanding. You have to know that in Polish there is the same, identical word for a lock and a castle (like German: Schloss and schließen but even “a closer bond”). You both translated it as a castle, She, I think (I assume she knows Polish) “took a wrong turn” in a French Dictionary. You probably because you didn’t know about two separate meanings and took wrong French word (or, perish the thought, just followed blindly her choice without checking it). BTW: all the other translators (except a Pole from Polish to English – the same two mistakes: abyss and castles) came in with flying colors on this, Russians and Belorusssians automatically. as in their languages there is also a single word for lock and castle, and the others just did their work as it was supposed to be done.
However, only yours has in my eyes major fault in the first line (except from youngster from Poland who, alas, is fluent in English).
The first line in Polish says: „Pewnego dnia odnajdziemy nasze głębie”. The last word is „głębie”. It is literally (ours) depths. The poem is optimistic: the depth here is a counter point to “shallows” and no more. “We are deep, not shallow but we didn’t reach yet all ours depths, but when we reach them ...”. “profondeurs” is fitting ( nothing to be ashamed of) and doesn’t have any negative connotation. You, for the most optimistic poem chose “abîmes“ – dark, frightening, changing the whole meaning (or at least weight) of the poem. Abyss is endless, dark, unconquerable (and goes by different word in Polish). We are not told to discover and conquer eternal abyss, just to reach the depths of ourselves (our souls call it). By the way, when translating, in French dictionary it’s further down the line then “profondeurs”. So your translation is in better French but in my opinion it’s a little misleading, doesn’t convey the message of the poet. That’s what I meant by “understanding source language”

AzaliaAzalia
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 16:08

Dear Israel, although your comment is not addressed to me, let me reply shortly, since I've contributed to this translation by leaving some comments (in French) to Jadis about the issues you've pointed out.

You are right about "głębie" and "zamek" and this is what I commented upon to Jadis a couple of hours ago. He made corrections almost instantly.
I wonder, then, why in you comment left several minutes ago you are referring to errors corrected several hours ago as a result of my explanations. I would assume that the corrected version has been visible for at least two hours now. Is there a problem of posts'/translations' visibility in real time, then?

JadisJadis
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 16:49

Actually, Azalia told me just the same, as she says, that's the reason why I corrected "głębie" and "zamki" (I didn't even ask myself about « zamki », because the first (Polish) translator had chosen "châteaux", but it's exactly the same in Russian, so I noticed my error straight ahead).

The reason why I made this version is because the first French version was partly incorrect.

For ex : « l'amour prendra la beauté de la main »  sounds like a misinterpretation, although I believe that it only comes from an unsufficient knowledge of French. It should be "par la main", "de la main" would mean "the beauty of the hand".

I neither couldn't get where she found "la chanson la plus aimée" ; "la porte de la maison" (drzwi domów) isn't right, as far as I know, it should be "les portes des maisons" (plural) ; "Et chaque être humain à chaque homme - frère"  is a syntactic copy of Polish (or Russian), but in no case is this French. "Verser du grain aux pigeons" sounds clumsy. Etc.

As to "profondeurs", if you have a better word in French, I would be interested. « Profondeurs » is not negative in French.

IsraelWuIsraelWu    Ven, 02/08/2019 - 17:01

Sorry,
I started to point out these things almost exactly at the same time as you. It was almost finished when I was called away and I finished it immediately when I came back. Saw your comments (even in French I understand a bit if I know in advance what it is about), decided to post anyway ( I understand it in this youngster's translation to English but not in his translation to French, unless these are his first steps in Polish) but didn't check his corrections. That's all, no dark net and dark plots. BTW, I had other remarks of minor importance as well. - simply couldn't understand why somebody with his record, as I have seen it here on site, submits a new version for mere four or five lines of language mostly, about half of the lines are identical and in the others the meaning stays only the French is better. You know I'll check his translations from/to Polish and perhaps even apologize if it's so (we want him to learn Polish, don't we ?:-)
A poza tym chciałem Pani (Ci) podziękować za jedno zostatnich tłumaczeń z włoskiego. Dosłownie mogłem odnajdywać słowa włoskie i czytać "oryginał"
Dziękuję.

JadisJadis
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 17:24

No problem, that's what I thought. I left comments under the 1st version yesterday, but it looks like the translator isn't around, because I got no answer. Anyway, I think that she should not try to made French versions without asking for re-reading, because... it's not French. If you look at this translation for example, you might stare a long time (as I did) at « le moment que quoi toujours prend dure peu de temps », because nobody would ever, ever say anything like that, and it doesn't mean the faintest thing (among other translation remarks). So I thought it would be better to make a new version of this one, and not to give a "one-star" appreciation...

 

IsraelWuIsraelWu    Ven, 02/08/2019 - 18:17

I saw at least part of these things and know my count of one, two...many in both Polish and French, it's doors and houses. Still, about third to half of it was identical so I wondered but with this translation as example I apologize, I truly do. Actually I remember I did the same here once. Read a translation of Polish to English where the translator "studied" both languages. The main idea in Polish was botched, he(she) did not understand it and translated it under false premises (the English was better, so what ?). I was angry, translated it en passant (Chess not French :-) and forgot it.
Sorry once again.
"profondeurs" - well, not of the cuff. And I know it's not negative in French, I never said it (well how can it be, it's Latin translation of Hebrew). “abîmes“ is dark and negative and in direct contradiction to the spirit of the poem. Somehow it seems to me very wrong to appear here even if on the face of it seems to fit. Perhaps because I am sensitive directly to the Polish source.

JadisJadis
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 18:34

And I'm sensitive to the French target... :) But anyway, I checked as much as I could the Polish words (just forgot to check the б☻*!$§ "zamki"!) with the help of online resources, and there is much I get rather easily with the help of my (feeble) Russian knowledge... once I have got over the barrage of spelling. For ex, "każdy człowiek każdemu człowiekowi – bratem" is crystal clear to me, even without having learned Polish.

AzaliaAzalia
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 18:45

Wishing you a serene, happy weekend, gentlemen. I hope everything's clear now and we can all stop worrying about anything.

Israel, thanks for appreciating my translation from Italian; it's really uplifting when I think my skills are on a downward curve. BTW, I'd prefer to leave "pani" for more official situations than communication with LT users ;)

IsraelWuIsraelWu    Ven, 02/08/2019 - 21:15

Jadis,
Don't ask me how. I did some acrobatics with translations and rejected almost all. This word "mouille" is a possible - it gave me in Polish something like deep. What is it ? the e at the end is without accent. With accent it means something like wet, moist, without accent - deep.
And "każdy człowiek każdemu człowiekowi – bratem" has shorter form : "człowiek człowiekowi - bratem" or a man is a brother to man (and who needs the every/each etc). The short form goes fine in Russian too, and you can put a wolf for brother too, depends on the message you want to send.
We had a saying that in Capitalism a man is a wolf to man. Question:"And what about Communism ? Oh,entirely different story, here it's another way around." And don't sell me stories about your "feeble" Russian. If I wouldn't see you chatting (sorry, commenting) with the best of them I could even believe you.

JadisJadis
   Ven, 02/08/2019 - 22:14

Mouille ? Normally it's just the 1st or 3rd person, singular, indicative or subjunctive present, of the verb "mouiller" (to wet, although there are some more meanings, in the navy for ex.)
 
I found another (very rare, IMO) meaning, as a noun : "a hollow in the moving-bottom bed of a stream, most often located at the top of the curve of a sinuosity", whatever this can be. But I bet it's a very specialized term, and nearly nobody would understand it.
 
True, I first thought of translating "Tous les hommes sont frères" (All men are brothers), but I found it a little abrupt comparing to the original. And the model is "Homo homini lupus", Man is a wolf to man.
 
Capitalism — it's the exploitation of man by man.
Communism — it's the opposite. ;)
 

IsraelWuIsraelWu    Sam, 03/08/2019 - 07:13

Sorry i didn't find nothing. I can imagine the last one thanks to the Theory of Fluids and simple hydraulics. And it shouldn't be deep, just subsurface cavern in the "knee" of the flow.
And about Capitalism - Communism, you are entirely right. It's my memory letting me down about these old jokes. I just wonder: are they universal, did you pick it because of your Russian or is this another influence on French language by comm. party in the past :-).

JadisJadis
   Sam, 03/08/2019 - 07:35

I guess it's just well known among us, as everywhere around the world...