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Could need help with a bunch of Hebrew words (and a couple of phrases in other languages)

39 posts / 0 nuovo
Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

It's two sentences. One I've already figured out, I think:

"Tanin'iver Liftoach Nia" (תנין עִוֵּר לפתוח עין I guess) means "blind dragon, open your eyes"?
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-internal-fire-lyrics.html

"Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin'iver Taninsam" (google translate transliterated it to
תוהו תהום תהלי טחן לויאטהן תננאבר תננסאם but it seems not quite right)
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-black-dragon-lyrics.html
I think I understand "tanin'iver", "tohu", "tehom" and, obviously, "leviathan" but I can't understand what the complete sentence means.

The band used quite a couple of different languages in their lyrics (normally only some words or lines per song) - so if someone wants to check whether s/he recognized which language the phrases are written in, here:
(I'll only link those that I haven't already found out myself)
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-beyond-horizon-lyrics.html
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-dark-mother-divine-lyrics.html
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-god-forbidden-light-lyrics.html
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-nexion-218-lyrics.html
Some may also be pseudo-languages or mixes of idioms, without any real meaning.

Moderator of the North
Iscritto dal: 28.09.2011

These lines as a whole don't make much sense, to the point I'm not even sure it's Hebrew. It would've been much easier if the words weren't transliterated, but let's assume it is Hebrew and try to solve it, so:

"Tanin iver Liftoach Nia" (תנין עיוור לפתוח ניה) - would mean - "blind crocodile, to open Nia" (Nia is not a word).

"Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin iver Taninsam" (תוהו תהום תלי תן לויתן תנין עיוור תנינסם) - would mean - "Chaos, abyss, Theli, Than, Leviathan, blind crocodile, Taninsam" - the words not translated have no meaning, or at least no sensible one I can guess.

Moderator of the North
Iscritto dal: 28.09.2011
Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

According to a dictionary I found, "nia" means eye. I don't remember where I found it, but just google for עין. Or look at that Wikipedia article: http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A9...
And that fits, since the next line of the lyrics contains a half-translation of the line: "Tanin'iver open your eyes"

The things mentioned in the links you gave I already knew.
The translation of "Ishet Zenunim Taninsam Ama Lilith, Liftoach Kliffot" there I already found elsewhere but it can't be a very literal translation, if it's one at all.

Btw, "tanin" is a mythological creature - and the meaning of the word has changed over time. Once it meant dragon or snake, now it means crocodile.
Similiar things have happened to "behemoth" - the Russian word for hippopotamus.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin_%28Mythologie%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanin%27iver

Well, anyway, thanks for you help!

Moderator of the North
Iscritto dal: 28.09.2011

As for "nia", if you find that source again please share it here - I can't think of any way it could mean "eye" or anything else for that matter.

As for "tanin" - well I assumed it might have a slightly different meaning than the modern one, same as "behemoth" and "Leviathan" you mentioned as well as the Norwegian "orm". I'm an not very familiar with neither Kabalistic nor Satanic/Luciferian terms, so I might not be able to help much with the rest of this incantation.

Moderator of the North
Iscritto dal: 28.09.2011

not sure if it's even worth mentioning, but now that I think of it "nia" spelled backwards - as "ain", sure sounds a lot more like "eye".

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Well, I only took these Hebrew transliterations from some website (I did that translation some days ago, don't remember where), I've no clue how to read Hebrew letters.
Maybe some of the words actually are meant to be read backwards (wouldn't surprise me), or the one who looked them up to make these phrases made a mistake himself.

Is עין pronounced as "nia" or as "ain"?

Moderator of the North
Iscritto dal: 28.09.2011

ain

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Okay, well, then I'm quite sure that this "nia" is meant to be "ain" - either intentionally or by mistake.

Moderator of the North
Iscritto dal: 28.09.2011

well, it still doesn't quite mean "blind dragon, open your eyes" unless "open your eyes" is not commanding the dragon, but rather its surrounding - meaning - open your eyes - to watch out/yourselves.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

I'd understand it as the dragon being commanded to open its eyes in the literal sense, implying that the dragon should awaken and heal its eyes so it can open them again and see.
Why can't it mean that?
The song is quite on the side of the dragon, so "open your eyes" meaning "look out, there's a dragon" wouldn't make much sense in its context.

Moderator of the North
Iscritto dal: 28.09.2011

In that case, literally translated - it would sounds like this "blind dragon, to open, eye" - not very coherent.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

I understand.
I guess the one who wrote it either just didn't really know Hebrew that well or wanted to use wrong grammar etc. to make it sound more obscure xD

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

So, I think I've figured out everything of the second phrase, except for Than.

"Taninsam" is another name of Lilith, and "Theli" is a dragon of Jewish and some other mythologies.

Btw, "tohu" meaning "chaos"? That seems like only a metaphoric way to translate it since according to Wikipedia it means "vain" or "waste".

I've added a translation into German now. Well, translations should be about making a text clear to the reader? I understand the song since I've read a bit stuff about the religion of its author but I can hardly add a footnote for each and every little reference that it contains.

Moderator of the North
Iscritto dal: 28.09.2011

"tohu" has several meanings, amongst them are indeed: desert, wasteland and emptiness, but it is still more commonly used and recognized as 'chaos'.

As for 'Than', just by the way he says it - it kinda sounds like 'jackal' but since there is no context, I didn't want to say anything. Maybe it will work for you now that you figured out most of it.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Okay, thanks for your help!

"Jackal" doesn't really make sense - except for the fact that this is the symbol of the egyptian god Set, who would fit in the context. Also another band, called Therion, once made an album called "Theli" which has a song about Set, so to connect these two might be not so strange.
Well, it might actually be that what is meant but it seems a bit farfetched.

Member
Iscritto dal: 18.05.2013

I'm definitely not an expert on Kabbalah, but this is an interesting discussion and an interesting riddle, so here's what I have to add:

First of all, the "Tanin 'iver" appears in quite a bit of Kabbalistic writings. Moshe Koredovero describes it as a celestial equivalent to the "tanin" of Earth which is some sort of eyeless marine animal (it's not clear exactly which), and that the Tanin 'iver serves as the escort for the matrimony of Lilith and Samael. About the "open your eye" issue, note the following quote:

"[...] אם היה בעל עינים היה הזווג הטמא שלם חס ושלום והיו מחריבים העולם."

"[...] If he had eyes, the unholy couple would be whole, god forbid, and would destroy the world".

This is probably what makes it especially appropriate for a creepy dark metal song. About grammar - lifto'ah 'ain is not classical Hebrew, but it would make sense (even if it's not too fluent) as "open your eye" in modern Hebrew. And Kabbalistic writings were written in many different times, some in Aramaic, some in Hebrew with a variety of styles and not always perfect grammar, so it's not impossible that it's even some sort of classical incantation or something.

As for Taninsam, it's an alternative name for the tanin 'iver, see for example the 17th century book "Emek hamelekh":
"[...] התנין אשר בים הוא התנין עור הנקרא תַנִּינְּסַם" ("The tanin in the sea, he is the tanin 'iver known as Taninsam").

Theli is a concept from ancient Jewish / Kabbalistic cosmology, but some Kabbalistic writers described it as some sort of mythological being as well.

The word "tohu" is mostly like "void" or "emptiness". I don't know where you found it to mean "vain" or "waste", I believe these would be the metaphorical uses (mostly in the common phrase "עלה בתהו", "went up in the tohu", meaning "to go to waste" or "to be in vain").

Unfortunately, "than" does not sound like anything I know, and it's too short to allow for good text searching. It'll remain a mystery for now.

As for "Ishet Zenunim Taninsam Ama Lilith, Liftoach Kliffot": The first part again seems like a list of demons or something. "eshet znunim" literally means "promiscuous woman", but in Kabbalist context it seems to often refer to a specific kind of demon. The word "Ama" seems a bit out of place, generally it's a kind of female servant or slave, so either it was written by someone with poor grammar, or it's another Kabbalistic reference I don't get.
And "liftoach kliffot": the term "qlipoth" literally means "shells" or "husks", but is kind of a complicated term in Kabbalah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth

Some interpertations imply that opening the qlipoth would bring the destruction of the world, so this is probably what the song aims for.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Thanks for your help!

I guess I have already understood by the English lines what the songs are supposed to mean but your comment helps me to see the details of the references in them.

Since I know a bit about the religion of the author of the lyrics (a kind of Chaos-Gnosis) I can tell that the metaphor of the opening eye is quite frequent there.
That he combined that with some things from Kabbala is typical for that religion, too.

I read somewhere that Tannin was blinded by God (or, from a Gnostic view, by the demiurge), and so this Kabbalistic story is understood by some Chaos-Gnostics as a metaphor for being bound within the cosmos and deprived of some transcendent knowledge. So, to call for Tannin to regain his eyes means to strive to return to the primal chaos by trying to reach gnosis/enlightenment (which figuratively is called opening one's eyes). Still, it's a rather atypical metaphor, I don't think I have ever heard about the story of Tannin outside of contexts of the religious group of that author.

Taninsam I considered to be another name of Lilith (which in that way is said to be the same as Tannin), for it says so in one of the books of the author's religion. I now looked it up again and they use the word "ama" in the meaning of "dark mother", also in reference to Lilith.
Both that infos can be found here on page 56: http://de.scribd.com/doc/112418530/103083436-Temple-of-the-Black-Light
Well, seems like they like to mix up all these things quite a bit.

"tohu" to "waste" ("wüst" in German) I have from the German Wikipedia entry of Tohuwabohu. In my translation I have translated it to "chaos" since that's surely what is meant in that context of the lyrics (and the German Wikipedia entry also says that tohuwabohu would often be translated with "chaos" nowerdays).

"than" probably really is "jackal", as TrampGuy mentioned, for it's quite common in the group of religions that Chaos-Gnosis belongs to to also make references to the Egyptian jackal-headed god Seth.
It could be something else though.

About "Ishet Zenunim" and "Qliphoth" - thanks for confirming what I already found out myself.

"Some interpertations imply that opening the qlipoth would bring the destruction of the world, so this is probably what the song aims for."

Yes, that fits perfectly. And I agree, that song surely aims for the destruction of the world.

PS: Just to make it clear, I'm not a Gnostic myself. While I do appreciate some aspects of that religion it's a bit too dualistic for my tastes.

Super Member
Iscritto dal: 19.10.2012

Does someone know what this mean "ahava tea sea otanu"? It's written the way it is pronounced.

Moderator of the North
Iscritto dal: 28.09.2011
Konstantine schrieb:

Does someone know what this mean "ahava tea sea otanu"? It's written the way it is pronounced.

It's "love -- something-- us", I don't know what "tea sea" supposed to be. If you have the hebrew script, post it here.

Super Member
Iscritto dal: 19.10.2012

I don't have the hebrew script, this is all I've been given. But thank you! Regular smile

Senior Member
Iscritto dal: 03.12.2014

Might be אהבה תשא אותנו-Love will carry us.

Novice
Iscritto dal: 22.09.2015

FUCK YEAH DISSECTION!!!!!

Quote:

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-black-dragon-lyrics.html
I think I understand "tanin'iver", "tohu", "tehom" and, obviously, "leviathan" but I can't understand what the complete sentence means.

The band used quite a couple of different languages in their lyrics (normally only some words or lines per song) - so if someone wants to check whether s/he recognized which language the phrases are written in, here:
(I'll only link those that I haven't already found out myself)
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-beyond-horizon-lyrics.html
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-dark-mother-divine-lyrics.html
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-god-forbidden-light-lyrics.html
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/dissection-nexion-218-lyrics.html
Some may also be pseudo-languages or mixes of idioms, without any real meaning.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Didn't expect someone to reply to the topic of this thread again.
Welcome to the website! \m/

(Btw, I edited your post to make the quoting feature work, you had forgotten the first tag of it - I hope you don't mind)

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Returning to the topic, to whomever it may concern, I recently found out that "ain" is also used in the meaning of "the nothing/all that was in the beginning" by some other Gnostics related to the band in question. It's because "אין" ("ain") means "none".
It's most likely related to the concept of Ain Sof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Sof
Maybe the word "ain" in the lyrics was either meant in this double meaning, or it was spelt "nia" to differentiate it from that other word.
But well, who knows, the one who could tell best isn't alive anymore anyway.

Novice
Iscritto dal: 27.11.2015

So to end it here this song is an Evocation to the black dragon Tohu Tehom Theli Than Leviathan Tanin'iver Taninsam are the many true names of the dragon from many different religions around the glob, from south to north

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Thank you for your comment. I guess one could describe it as that, but that summary doesn't say why to evoke this dragon and why to call it Tannin. I already explained that above, so I won't repeat that here.

All the myths mentioned are from Europe and the Middle East, so, around the globe may be a bit of an exaggeration.
Mentioned are Hebrew, Canaanite, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Greek and Germanic names. And "true names"? I'm not sure whether they are considered that.

Novice
Iscritto dal: 11.02.2017

Hi man!

This topic is really interesting. As a metalhead I find that Dissection lyrics are full of mysticism and ancient references. I'm not a linguistic or something alike, but may be I can give you one reference (in case you don't know it) so you may dig deeper on it. There is a band named Watain, they are like the succesors of Dissection's legacy, in their Opus Diaboli DVD they speak about their cult and the spiritualism in their art. Also, there is a song named 'Waters of Ain', which have a direct conection to Dissection's works, and as far as I'm concerned, there is also in Egypt a region or a river named like that (but I think is spelled different). Any way, I loved to read this thread and please forgive my english, is not my first lengauge and I don't write it to often.
Cheers and keep the good work on lml

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Hi!

Always nice to meet someone interested in this as well!

I already knew Watain, I've actually translated quite a bunch of their songs.
Thanks for the recommendation anyway.
Well, maybe you wanna take a look at my translations, maybe you find something interesting. They are mostly into German, though, as that's my native language.

Regarding "Ain", I'm pretty sure it refers to either the Hebrew word for eye, or to the Ain Sof, depending on the text, in some maybe to both.

Novice
Iscritto dal: 11.02.2017

That's awesome!
Sure I will lml

Novice
Iscritto dal: 22.06.2017

It seems like there aren't many open issues left, so I hope I can still contribute to this discussion!

The Than Question
I guess it does refer to Set, like you've suggested. Note that the first four names all start with a ת, which is the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, symbolizing The End. I think it was done intentionally, so they looked for a fourth name that starts with a ת and has only a few syllables (so it's 2-2-2-1 syllables eventually; Tanin'iver or Taninsam wouldn't fit in that place).

The Ama Question
It is probably just a mispronunciation of Ima (EE-ma), which means "mother", as a reference to the Dark Mother. The word is written אמא, so it's easy to make that mistake. During my studies of the Qabalah (which is quite different from the Kabbalah on which the MLO relies, but the two still have some points in common), I've seen Ima mistransliterated as "Ama", "Aima" and even "Uma".

The Liftoach Nia Question
Regarding the use of "Liftoach" (to open) instead of "P'tach"/"Pit'chi" (open, i.e. an imperative): the only explanation I see is that it was a mistake. The MLO is a Swedish order, and I don't think they are fluent in Hebrew.
Ain (אין) doesn't have to refer to the Ain Soph, because Ain has its own independent Kabbalistic meaning. the Qabalah teaches that there are three veils of negative existence: Ain, Ain Soph, Ain Soph Aur. Ain is that nothingness, the cosmological Chaos that the band worships.
However, it would make much more sense that they meant Ayin (עין), which - as you've already mentioned - means "eye". Ain is not a thing to be "opened", but Ayin definitely is - especially when we're talking about the eye of Tanin'iver, whose opening would unite Samael and Lillith and thus bring The End.

About the original meaning of Tanin: Yes, Tanin originally referred to a monster, but today it simply means "alligator".
Similarly, Leviathan was a formidable sea monster, and today it means "whale". Tehom is derived from the Proto-Semitic word Tiham, which means "sea" (in the sense of "sea of creation") and Tiamat is derived from this word as well, but today it means "abyss".

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

@Kepyou: Thank you for this information! And welcome to this website!
Seems like I really should start learning Hebrew one day. Just, so many languages, such little time.

Regarding Liftoach - I assume a lot of the mantras used by the MLO are not based on existing words. As far as I know, mantras often are based on channeled information (e.g. via automatic writing), but I don't know whether this practice is also used in this group. Or do you maybe know whether others of their mantras are fully based on Hebrew?

You are certainly right about Ain vs. Ain Soph. I think I saw the two of them equated in one text by the MLO, but I don't remember it exactly, and traditionally they of course are separate.

Tehom and Tiamat are related etymologically? Now that's interesting. I mean, makes sense as Hebrew and Akkadian both are Semitic languages, but I would never have thought of that.

Novice
Iscritto dal: 22.06.2017

I don't know many of their mantras, but from Reinkaos the only other entirely Hebrew-based mantra is "Ishet Zenunim Taninsam Ama Lilith, Liftoach Kliffot" which was mentioned here.
Mantras like "Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Zazas", "Vedar-Gal Tiekals Somdus Azerate", "Dies Irae Dies Illa Solvet Cosmos In Favilla, Vocamus Te Aeshma-Diva", "Lucifer Illuminatio Mea", "Lylusay Tateros Volt Sids Lucifer", "Jai Maha Kali, Jai Ma Kalika, Kali Mata, namo nama" are all clearly not Hebrew.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Thanks, that answers my question.
What I was referring to was, I can't tell whether or not a word like "Lylusay" is Hebrew, so since you mentioned that "Liftoach" is I was wondering.

Novice
Iscritto dal: 22.06.2017

After quite a long time of research, I've posted an assessment of the album's lyrics - including the mantras (they call them "formulae"), Latin words, Hebrew words and names and much more. My main source was Liber Azerate, the Swedish "holy" book of the MLO.
http://aaaaaaaa1337.blogspot.co.il/2018/03/dissecting-dissections-reinka...
I'd love to hear your opinion!

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Oh, that sounds quite interesting! Gonna give it a read soon!

I read part of Liber Azerate myself in the past, but well, it's in Swedish (and the English translations available are awful), so progress is a little slow and there are quite a lot of other books out there worth my time.

And lol at "still haven't found a comprehensive guide to all its lyrics" - if you ever find something like that for any album that might be of interest (especially for a metal and/or esoteric album) let me know because that's extremely rare.

Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

Sorry for the slight delay, quite busy currently.

That's really an extremely comprehensive analysis, and well-written.

There were some parts were I wasn't too sure whether they wouldn't need some further explanation (e.g. " Virgin, mother, whore and crone
References to all forms/aspects of Lilith." being an expansion of the concept of the triple-goddess), but I guess most who would read that far already heard of that before.

Here's some comments on it:

"cosmological Chaos"
I would argue that many anti-cosmic gnostics would take offense at that term.
You could perhaps describe the parts of chaos that are in the cosmos as "cosmological chaos" but using that term for the primal source of existence seems misapplied in these contexts.
Well, okay, from a kabbalistic/qliphotic point of view, in which that chaos/ain sof really is nothing but mere, incomprehensible nothingness, the term kinda makes sense as then there really is nothing but the cosmos as an emanation of the ain sof. And that is one of the themes found in chaos-gnosticism.
But if we instead consider the chaos as the pandimensional etc. beyond the cosmos, and the cosmos as only a small, erroneous part of the allpotentiality of chaos, then that term really is misapplied in my opinion. Unless of course, by "cosmic" you just mean "universal", but even then I'd avoid it in this context.

"acausal (that is, not limited to the law of cause and effect)"
I also encountered acausal in the sense of "not physical but spiritual/astral (sometimes also including mental)". But that's based on the notion that the human mind or at least soul is not caused by the cosmos and therefore not following the same rules as it, and in that way acausal, Therefore it basically leads to the same conclusions if one is aware of the metaphysics it's based on.

"abyss"
You seem to be using that term for a variety of concepts: Chaos, the subconscious, the veil (or one of them) between the lower and higher spiritual planes,... but I must admit that this is not exactly uncommon and the lyrics also don't really treat the term coherently.

"ur-essens"
You translated that as "inner-essence". Makes sense if one sees the path of chaos-gnosis (or spiritual paths in general) in their psychological aspects, as a form of self-work, and only secondarily as a change in the external world. Your essay doesn't really make that clear, but I wouldn't blame you for that as it seems quite rare that this distinction is made explicit. Especially in the case of chaos-gnosticism it's fairly important, though, as their lingo often refers to destroying the world or whatever even in those cases when merely internal changes are meant.

"symbolized by the seven planetary spheres"
That's some quite antique stuff, isn't it? Having to go through all the spheres makes a lot of sense from a geocentric model of the cosmos.
I don't actually know much antique esoteric literature, but I know that in "De Nuptiis Philologiae et Mercurii", which is (among other things) about the apotheosis of a woman named Philology, she also has to pass through all the spheres to get to the highest divinity and thereby become deified herself. So that doesn't seem to be restricted to Gnosticism.

"Sumerians and ancient Sanskrit texts interpreted the word "aeon" differently from in Gnosticism, but all of these traditions share a common point - after seven aeons the original chaos restores all forms of existence to the formlessness that once was."
Are you sure this is that common? I think in Hinduism we already are in the 51st aeon, and, for what it's worth, I once heard in Zoroastrianims there are 3 (or were it 9?). Don't know about how it's in Sumerian mythology, though.

"Elixirs were used in many MLO rituals."
Source? Wink smile

"Chaos magic"
You are conflating the magick of anti-cosmic gnosticism with chaos magick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic
I mean, there also seem to be chaos-gnostics who use a chaos-magick-approach, but anti-cosmic gnosticism is often a very dogmatic form of the LHP, at least relatively speaking, and thereby quite the opposite of chaos magick.

"And as mentioned before, Taninsam is the elder Lilith."
Would that equate the elder Lilith with the ruler of the 2nd Qlipha Gamaliel? If not, and assuming that the younger Lilith is Naamah, there are 3 Liliths in that system...

"The "eyeless sight" is another reference to the awakening of the Kundalini, which, to the MLO, is synonymous with opening the eyes of Tanin'iver."
Huh, nice catch!

"Many statues show Lilith as having bird-feet, and many birds are associated with the lotus, so by transitivity we may say that she has lotus feet."
Okay, I'm impressed, I don't know how I could have ever reached that conclusion myself... I interpreted this as referring to her beauty (as lotus feet were traditionally seen as beautiful) combined with general depravity (as binding the feet in that way is essentially torture) and thereby sexual perversions (as that's what her and Naahma's Qlipha stand for among other things, if I remember that correctly).

In the interpretation of Xeper-I-Set, one may also include some Setian interpretations - but as we don't really know how much of those were intended by the author...

For example: "The "seven stars" are the Pleiades cluster."
I know that some Setians interpret this cluster because it never sets (no pun intended) to represent Set and/or the black flame, etc. as the aspect of existence that is free from the laws and cycles of nature.

"Calling upon thee amidst the chaotic angles
Describes the setting of an MLO temple."
It does? Wasn't aware of that - I took it to refer e.g. to the 11-angled pentagram, which you mentioned as well.

"Contrary to the regular Kundalini, which, when awakened, causes one to be filled with love and compassion, the black Kundalini is chaotic and wrathful."
Wouldn't bet that this description of the normal Kundalini can be generalized. That sounds quite like a westernized interpretation or a form of white-washing. The descriptions of it that I recall didn't really mention much in regards to an increase in compassion or love (however, wrath wasn't mentioned either) - if anything, then increased perception and a heightened emotionality, which for some might result in increased empathy and love.
But well, I'd argue that gnostics are dualists by default, so makes sense to distinguish between 2 kinds of kundalini from that point of view.

Thank you a lot for this essay. While I already knew the majority of what you mention there, there also were quite some parts that were entirely new to me.

Btw, since you speak Hebrew - would you be interested/willing to translate some Hebrew lines from other bands' lyrics for me?

Novice
Iscritto dal: 22.06.2017
Thank you so much for your comments! This is exactly the kind of comments that I was looking for.
My comments on your comments (in the same order):
1. Thanks, will add.
2. Damn! I mistook "cosmogonical" for "cosmological". Thanks, will fix.
3. Yeah, that's pretty much the same meaning if you think about it.
4. Indeed, the word "abyss" has many meanings, I tried to be as close to the source as I could.
5. I agree, and I think this is kind of their point: microchaos and macrochaos are two sides of the same coin. EDIT: Updated the translation of "ur-essens" to "primal essence". A Swedish friend brought to my attention that in this case, the prefix "ur-" states that something is the very first of its kind, something ancient, simple, raw and pure.
6. Yes, that stems from the geocentric model. I'll add a note that it's also the case in some other sources.
7. I know, but Liber Azerate claims otherwise... As I said in the introduction, it's their fault! Regular smile
"Den essens som alla dessa nämnda religiösa former har gemensamt är att de alla hävdar att efter dessa sju eoner ut ur det ursprungliga kaoset måste allt (i.e. alla former) upplösas och återvända till den nollte dimensionens formlösa kaos."
8. Liber Azerate is the source. It contains instructions for many different rituals, and many of them (perhaps even most of them, I don't remember the exact number) involve an Elixir.
9. Thanks, I will fix that to "the work of the MLO" or something similar. Liber Azerate mentions it as an example of a "Satanist's" work, but as you know, their notion of what it means to be a Satanist is quite different from the most popular definitions.
10. Yes, I'm pretty sure that the elder Lilith is the ruler of Gamaliel. They talk about the union of Gamaliel (Lilith) with Thaumiel (Satan), and they mention in other parts of the book that Taninsam Lilith is the wife of Satan. Also note that other systems view Naamah as Lilith's sister, and others as her daughter. Some even call the last Qlippah "Lilith" (still ruled by Naamah).
11. Thanks
12. Oh, you mean the Chinese deformed feet? I'm not sure if Lilith has anything to do with that... But that's interesting, perhaps I'll add a note on that.
13. lol'd at the pun, will add.
14. Yes, the "chaotic angles" very likely refer to the broken pentagram, which was used as a decoration for their temples. So to "call upon him amidst the chaotic angles" would be to "invoke in the temple".
15. My knowledge of Kundalini awakening does indeed come from western sources, so perhaps that's why I thought it has to do with compassion and peacefulness. Can you please point me to more authentic sources? I'd like to fix that, too, if that's the case.
Again, thank you so much for all these comments. I'll apply the changes in an hour or so (EDIT: applied; even used your pun because I liked it so much).
And yes, I'd love to help you. Send me a message.
Moderator and Scholar of a Dark Age
Iscritto dal: 16.02.2011

You are very welcome, rather thanks for your feedback to mine Regular smile
I rarely get into such in-detail discussions of lyrics interpretations, so that is really appreciated.

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3. Yeah, that's pretty much the same meaning if you think about it.

Yes, but only in the context of the metaphysical assumptions taken here - if you for example believe that the mind and spirit are not foreign to the universe but based on the same kinds of rules (like e.g. in atheism or pantheism) then calling them "acausal" makes no sense whatsoever.
And even in gnosticism it's not entirely logical - the cosmos itself is after all an emanation of chaos, so in that way it would be acausal, too.
I guess it's something that one shouldn't put under that much scrutiny but just take "acausal" as a kind of slogan which is more about the inner emotional mindset than about what's going on under the hood, so to speak.

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5. I agree, and I think this is kind of their point: microchaos and macrochaos are two sides of the same coin. EDIT: Updated the translation of "ur-essens" to "primal essence". A Swedish friend brought to my attention that in this case, the prefix "ur-" states that something is the very first of its kind, something ancient, simple, raw and pure.

That's what it also means in German (my native language), that's why I noticed that there was something off with translating it as "inner". What's your native language, if I may ask?

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12. Oh, you mean the Chinese deformed feet? I'm not sure if Lilith has anything to do with that... But that's interesting, perhaps I'll add a note on that.

Yes, exactly - that's what the term normally means after all.

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15. My knowledge of Kundalini awakening does indeed come from western sources, so perhaps that's why I thought it has to do with compassion and peacefulness. Can you please point me to more authentic sources? I'd like to fix that, too, if that's the case.

"authentic sources" is difficult. I have read a few books/articles of the more scientific/scholarly kind on Hinduism, but I'm afraid that Kundalini wasn't mentioned much in those. So my remark was more based on gut-feeling, and on stuff I heard but can't trace back to where I heard it.
Hm, perhaps in one of the books by Jan Fries something of that might be mentioned? But he seems fairly "fluffy" for an occultist, so he might actually be of the "kundalini = compassion"-kind, and he's a westerner who often rather writes about his own experiences. His books also contain a lot of proper, original sources-based research, though, so there might be something to be found there. Perhaps I'll re-read them and find something on that. But currently not.

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And yes, I'd love to help you. Send me a message.

Great, gonna do so.

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