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А тебе еще мало по-русски

А тебе еще мало по-русски,
И ты хочешь на всех языках
Знать, как круты подъемы и спуски
И почем у нас совесть и страх.
 
Vertaling

So with Russian alone you aren't happy

So with Russian alone you aren't happy—
In all languages, you'd like to hear
Just how rough ups and downs really can be,
And the true cost of conscience and fear.
 
Gegeven reacties
Sophia_Sophia_
   Woe, 03/06/2020 - 23:12

Six English translations! Wow, guys:D

SchnurrbratSchnurrbrat    Do, 04/06/2020 - 00:56
AlmitraAlmitra
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 09:04

Actually, the verb 'prove' has more than one pattern:
1) prove + to: "all our reports proved to be true" (Collins);
2) prove + ADJ: "this process of transition has often proven difficult" (Collins) / "the scheme has proved a great success" (Oxford).
Therefore the third line should be understood as follows: насколько крутым может оказаться каждый спуск и подъем.

SchnurrbratSchnurrbrat    Do, 04/06/2020 - 15:41
silencedsilenced    Do, 04/06/2020 - 15:55

"prove to be" is certainly more common, but I have no doubt "prove + adjective" does work too.
I share your concern about rejecting the verb at the end though.

Too bad natives willing to proofread Russian are in short suplly since Gavin sailed toward other shores.
[@michealt] or [@Sarah Rose] might lend us a hand maybe?

Sarah RoseSarah Rose    Do, 04/06/2020 - 20:35

"Just how steep can each fall and each rise prove" isn't a valid English sentence.

It would be better phrased as "Just how steep each fall and rise can prove to be."

The title and first line are also not valid sentences, something can "suffice" but not "suffice you."

In general, I don't recommend looking at other sources to see whether or not a certain phrase will work because what is often lost is the specific reason why it does or doesn't work. Everything is context-specific, so it will depend on what other grammar rules are in place in that particular sentence and how everything fits together as a whole.

"[each] climb can prove steep" sounds much better and is also more poetic. Then the next step would be how to add in "just how" if that part is necessary.

AlmitraAlmitra
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 21:43

Now that is a very interesting piece of information. Because it means that the Oxford dictionary offers example sentences that are not valid English sentences. I quote:
"suffice verb
[with obj.] meet the needs of
simple mediocrity cannot suffice them".

American Heritage Dictionary provides no examples, but gives the same meaning for the transitive form of the verb: "To satisfy the needs or requirements of; be enough for."

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary seems to quote invalid sentences, too:
"transitive verb:
to be enough
for a few more should suffice them".

Am I blind or stupid? What am I not seeing? How is my first line any different when it conveys exactly the same meaning?

silencedsilenced    Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:06

I don't know if that happens very often in English but in French sometimes a valid sentence just sounds odd for other reasons. Wrong register, for instance, or more idiomatic ways to say the same.

Sarah RoseSarah Rose    Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:26

Exactly. There are many examples of grammatically correct structures that sound wrong because no one ever uses them. In English, it's usually because we have so many words that mean the same thing and word order is so rigid. So we tend to favor a clear and concise phrase over one that is 100% grammatically correct but leaves room for ambiguity.

Sarah RoseSarah Rose    Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:19
Almitra a scris:

How is my first line any different when it conveys exactly the same meaning?

I've never heard "suffice" used as a transitive verb, only as an intransitive verb. So even if you've found dictionary proof that it can be used that way, if no one uses it that way, then most people aren't going to interpret it the way you mean it and will assume that it's incorrect. So to that end, I disagree that it conveys the same meaning.

I would phrase it like this: For you, Russian alone will not suffice.

silencedsilenced    Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:49

Apparently "suffice you" is peculiar English.
Most uses I found in contextual dictionaries point to the Bible. Who am I to question divine wisdom?
But then again, it's a place where you can also have a great vengeance executed upon you, with furious rebukes to boot :)

AlmitraAlmitra
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:53

Well, let's agree to disagree on dictionary data. If one cannot rely on reputable sources of linguistic data to solve linguistic arguments, then what can we rely on? Private opinions of native speakers, based on their personal exposure to linguistic patterns. I'm an avid reader, and I stumble on patterns and words I've never seen before all the time, including ad hoc and rare usage patterns (especially when it comes to poetry). Do I have to assume that all those authors (native speakers of Russian) use invalid Russian sentences? Sometimes, they do. But I still have to check my native-speaker intuitions using reputable sources of linguistic data.

Anyway, I still appreciate your ideas and your perspective. I'm always happy to learn. And I think placing 'for you' in the beginning of the sentence might actually be a good idea. I'll try to make the line work.

silencedsilenced    Do, 04/06/2020 - 23:07

I think what English lacks is a comprehensive reference dictionary that would provide more contextual informations, notably about register and frequency of occurrence.
France has the famous Dictionary of the Academy, which is a marvel of precision and thoroughness. I never found anything comparable in English.

For instance, compare what Merriam-Webster and Oxford have to say about "suffice" with this page defining "suffire" (the great grand father of "suffice")

AlmitraAlmitra
   Vrij, 05/06/2020 - 10:18

I agree, Pierre. In fact, most languages would benefit from such a dictionary. Don't even get me started on many of the Russian dictionaries. Take, for instance, a much needed dictionary of collocations in Russian. The one we've got contains about 2000 words and can't help you with many of the most common Russian words. Some popular explanatory dictionaries don't even bother with full-sentence examples.

And such sources of linguistic information are of paramount importance. Without them you're dead in the water (even competent speakers need to verify their intuitions every now and then). And if they provide inaccurate or misleading information, most translators have little to go by (most of our fellow-translators don't have native speakers on speed dial, and that's just how it is). In fact, I've been thinking about this translation since yesterday, and I think I'll just stop. Why bother? Apparently, my English is inadequate, my linguistic judgment is poor (I can't even tell if it's proper English), and there are no sources of linguistic data I can rely on. So what should I do? Run around like a headless chicken, asking native speakers to proofread my translations? That's just not a feasible option. I'll check my previous translations as best I can. If I find them lacking, I'll just remove them. I won't settle for translations in which half of all lines (two out of four in this case) aren't even valid in English. That's not why I wanted to translate.

silencedsilenced    Vrij, 05/06/2020 - 10:31

What the hell are you talking about?
You're one of the best translators around. Your English is stellar, only too pure to be wasted on pop songs, if anything.
Throwing the towel would be such a waste.

Running around like a headless chicken, begging natives for advices neatly sums up my activity on this site. You only left out the talking lots of nonsense and sprinkling cheeky remarks around part.
And so what? It's fun, it's constructive and it's helpful in a small but significant way. It helps people understand each other.
Not as much can be said about a lot of human activities.
Don't you dare remove a single translation of yours, it would be a crime.

BlackSea4everBlackSea4ever    Vrij, 05/06/2020 - 11:05

I second. I agree that an avid reader can come across many deviations from “proper” constructs - this makes you stop and read more carefully why line was phrased in a certain way, it makes language more fluid. Criticism above may be valid, but it detracts from the poetic turn of the phrase. It would be quite dull, lol, as proper things tends to be. I say you persevere... don’t remove your work.

AlmitraAlmitra
   Vrij, 05/06/2020 - 11:24

I don't know, maybe it's just my perfectionism speaking. But when two out of four lines in your translation turn out to be invalid, it makes you wonder. Someone asked me a few days ago whether I was worried about the way native speakers see my translations. I wasn't. A reasonable person knows that it's impossible to compete with native speakers. But when you are being diligent, when you try to check the lines you come up with using trusted sources of linguistic information, and you still end up with this kind of mess, it makes you wonder.

silencedsilenced    Vrij, 05/06/2020 - 11:38

It most likely is your perfectionism speaking. Why don't you send him on some nice errand, buying a paper maybe?
Languages are fuzzy by essence. Just enjoy it.
And besides you're tackling Akhmatova. Not exactly as easy as Lady Gaga, is it?

I study your translations. I watch them and learn. You're helping people just by your dedication. Not to mention your comments.
Still you can't win them all all by yourself.
Just enjoy the help of these great people and Akhmatova will become a bit more accessible to a few more people.
Which will make the world a better place in a tiny but significant way.

AlmitraAlmitra
   Vrij, 05/06/2020 - 11:35

Thank you, Pierre, you're too kind. And maybe you are right about looking at all this from a different angle. Thanks. However, unlike you, I don't know a single native speaker to ask for advice, so it's just plain old Russian me and the dictionaries and manuals you can't trust :)

silencedsilenced    Vrij, 05/06/2020 - 11:40

You know Sarah Rose now. Maybe you'll meet more such people on your way?

IremiaIremia
   Vrij, 05/06/2020 - 13:12

Al, I second and third the comments above. You are a great translator with awesome knowledge of the language. You should continue creating and contributing. Just like Pierre said, we learn from our mistakes and we ALL make them. I don’t dare taking on such translations that you tackle and I do have native speakers all around me. So please trust your instincts, combine the sources, and continue translating!

AlmitraAlmitra
   Vrij, 05/06/2020 - 13:32

Thanks for the support, Irina. I guess I just backed myself into a corner, mentally, trying to figure out if there was anything I could rely on. Not my best moment. Thanks again.

AlmitraAlmitra
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 19:14

'You' and 'prove' may not form a perfect rhyme, but I used a more complex (yet rather imperfect) rhyme here: suffice you / rise prove [ai+ju / ai+u]. In my opinion, it does meet the standards of rhyming, but maybe I just don't understand the concept.

As for examples with the "prove + ADJ" pattern, I gave you two, straight from a couple of decent dictionaries. Here's a bunch of examples from the British National Corpus (I left out those that followed the "prove + ADJ + to do sth" pattern):

This proved difficult, because his mind was awash with dragons.
Negotiating a settlement acceptable to both sides has proved difficult but a divorce is thought to be imminent.
But even these small matters proved difficult.
Finding homes proved difficult.
This proved difficult as the children did not readily count in fours.
It can prove too much for some of them.
...and it can prove fatal.
For this latter purpose it can prove invaluable...
It may prove too hard...
It may prove an effective contraceptive, but...
It may prove distressing for you, Miss Postlethwaite...

There are more where those came from. Just replace 'difficult' with an adjective you like.

There don't seem to be many objective arguments against my choice. The thing that does bother me, however, is the fact that the line does look like a question, which it's not. Seems like a valid point, so I'm going to have to think it over.

IremiaIremia
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 19:24

Your case is similar to the examples you provided, but not quite the same. I would change it to:

Just how steep can each fall and each rise prove => just how steep each fall and rise can prove.

IremiaIremia
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 16:50

It definitely needs “to be” or just dispense with “prove” altogether and use “could be”. Otherwise, the sentence is left unfinished.

AlmitraAlmitra
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 18:34

Definitely? Mkay.

IremiaIremia
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 18:45

I am trying to read from the English speaker’s perspective. Like 42 said above, it draws attention from the rest of the text because one stumbles over this phrase. But that is my opinion.

AlmitraAlmitra
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 19:24

I see, but I usually prefer to know what someone's opinion is based on. Otherwise I can't possibly know whether the point they're making is valid or not. I'm not saying I'm always right, but one can't just accept someone's opinion as fact... because other people aren't always right either.

IremiaIremia
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 19:36

I do understand and respect your position and while I am not equipped to provide the specific grammar rules, I can ask my native speaker friends for their opinion.

Sarah RoseSarah Rose    Do, 04/06/2020 - 20:34

Irula is correct.

AlmitraAlmitra
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 20:57

Could you elaborate on what you said? When I'm wrong, I prefer not to repeat the same mistake, and it's hard to learn much from a brief statement of fact. No offence. I've explained my position above and given a number of examples. Could you maybe explain to me how are they different from this particular case? Do they not follow the same pattern or what? I'm just not seeing it.

Sarah RoseSarah Rose    Do, 04/06/2020 - 21:55

Sure. I also left a comment above that may be helpful.

In the examples you gave, it's [prove + adjective]. In your example, you just have "prove" with no adjective after it.

There are two issues with the sentence. First, the verb is in the wrong position. It sounds like a question, but even for a question, you'd have to add "to be" at the end.

Second, putting "prove" at the end with no adjective forms an incomplete sentence. It looks like a word is missing. Each fall and each rise prove _____(what?)

As I mentioned above, a better way to phrase it is "Just how steep each fall and rise prove to be."
(Note that I also took out the repeated word "each").

Alternatives would be:
Just how steep each fall and rise can prove to be
Just how steep each fall and rise can be
[each] climb can prove steep

The last one would need some wordsmithing to make it work. If you'd like help with that, just let me know.

For any of these, it would be much more natural in English to switch the order of the verbs and say "rise and fall." That will give the line a much nicer flow.

IremiaIremia
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:09

Thank you, Sarah Rose, for such a nice explanation! I was trying my best 😉, but yours is just excellent!

Sarah RoseSarah Rose    Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:30

Your explanation was great! *thumbs_up*

IremiaIremia
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:41

Thank you!👏😊

IremiaIremia
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:04

I am not a language scholar, but I speak, read, and write in English in my daily life. So I will try to explain as well as I can.

Just how steep can each fall and each rise prove => this form is actually a question because you placed “can” before the nouns, and as a question it requires “to be” at the end.

Just how steep each fall and rise can prove => this is an affirmative with “can” after the nouns. And this is what you provided in your examples.

I also noticed that you make similar mistake in one of your comments:

“Could you maybe explain to me how are they different from this particular case?“ => Could you maybe explain to me how they are different....” There should not be two questions in one sentence.
Once you use one question word the rest should be in affirmative form. Sorry if I cannot explain it better.

SchnurrbratSchnurrbrat    Do, 04/06/2020 - 21:26
AlmitraAlmitra
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 21:57

Hey, 42, I din't think you were attacking my rhymes. And I actually agree with you on 'you' and 'prove', which is why I tried to improve the rhyme by using the word "rise" (I had better alternatives), which was supposed to echo "suffice". As for 'prove', it wasn't my word of choice either, but I wanted to keep the feminine rhyme here and find a word that could function in an unstressed position. As I was informed it's not a valid English sentence, so I'll think of something else.

Sarah RoseSarah Rose    Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:36

You can still rhyme "suffice" and "rise."

My recommendation above is to put "suffice" at the end. If you don't need to keep the word "prove" in the third line, you could say something like "the steepness of each fall and rise."

AlmitraAlmitra
   Do, 04/06/2020 - 22:59

Yes, that might be a good idea. I'll figure something out. After all, I don't care about my ego. I want to let people read quality translations of the lyrics and poems in Russian. If this translation is shite, then I'll sack or rewrite it. As simple as that.