Different writing systems

23 posts / 0 nowe
Super Member
<a href="/pl/translator/rujix" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1443211">Rujix</a>
Dołączył/a: 08.01.2020
Pending moderation

Is it allowed to translate from Simplified Chinese to Traditional Chinese? Or from Japanese (Kanji) to Japanese (Katakana) or Japanese (Hiragana)?

Moderator ᐂ
<a href="/pl/translator/alma-barroca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Dołączył/a: 05.04.2012

Hi. There aren't many Mods/Editors who speak these two languages (and as such we have no guidelines on that), so I'll tag those that do. Afterwards, I'll ask my fellow Mods. I personally think it's better to listen from speakers before the team makes any decision.

[@hankeat], [@Joyce Su], [@paulpaulpolly], [@Туна Ченевская], [@secantt], [@M Naomi]

Super Member
<a href="/pl/translator/rujix" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1443211">Rujix</a>
Dołączył/a: 08.01.2020

Ok, thank for you help

Editor
<a href="/pl/translator/joyce-su" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1375920">Joyce Su</a>
Dołączył/a: 17.03.2018

Q: Is it allowed to translate from Simplified Chinese to Traditional Chinese?

They only looks like different writing characters, but they cover same meanings.

First, I think the users did Chinese translations from Simplified to Tradition or Tradition to Simplified because of reading purpose or getting points. It’s hard to forbid the users to do it. My suggestion is to change the points as doing transliteration from 10 points to 2 points when the user select the translation in Chinese language.

Second, there are different things if the users translate Chinese to Chinese (Classical Chinese), Chinese (Cantonese), or Taiwanese Hokkien. Because these languages use same characters but they have to use different dialects to do translations. And then, the translation points still keep 10 points.

Editor & Amateur Poet
<a href="/pl/translator/%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1350083">Туна Ченевская</a>
Dołączył/a: 21.08.2017

I agree with what [@Joyce Su] said. Translation between Simplified and Traditional Chinese should be considered transliteration while translation between different dialects can absolutely be classified as translation.
By the way, is it possible for LT to auto translate Simplified Chinese to Traditional Chinese and vice versa, just like the auto transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin alphabet? It is technically possible as Google Translate and Wikipedia have such auto translation system. Then no one would bother doing such translation, and readers can choose the script they are comfortable with.

Super Member
<a href="/pl/translator/heydoc" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1289005">hey_doc</a>
Dołączył/a: 23.04.2016

Separating Japanese lyrics into different transliterations makes no sense, because the writing systems are not meant to be used like that. Japanese writing systems are used in conjunction according to the text and grammar, they are not isolated. The song lyrics should be written according to the format in the booklet. In case that the lyrics say one thing but the singer says another, you should probably add an annotation or put the pronounced lyrics in parentheses using hiragana.

Editor
<a href="/pl/translator/hankeat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1096994">hankeat</a>
Dołączył/a: 08.11.2011

I won't consider the translations between Simplified and Traditional Chinese as translations. My questions are is it necessary? What purpose does it serve? I believe no one would request that. Yesterday I saw a request to translate lyrics from Malay to Indonesian. To me the both languages are the same. The request is like to translate lyrics from British English to American English.

Editor
<a href="/pl/translator/paulpaulpolly" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1230433">paulpaulpolly</a>
Dołączył/a: 28.12.2014

I agree with [@hankeat] that Traditional/Simplified Chinese are pretty much identical to native Chinese users, but I can imagine that some learners of Chinese might not feel the same and prefer having a choice.

In a long run, I think [@Туна Ченевская]'s idea of making auto translation for Traditional/Simplified Chinese is great. That will help with the reading purpose that [@Joyce Su] mentioned. For now, users should submit such translation through transliteration instead of translation if they really want to. In this case they can only get 1 point from each transliteration.

If we go for auto translation, we might need to go through issues like:
1) Which section will get the auto translation? (lyrics only / both lyrics and translation)
2) What do we do with characters having different forms in the two systems (e.g. 松/鬆 in Trad. Chinese Vs. 松 in Simp. Chinese; 唓 in Trad. Chinese Vs. no equivalent in Simp. Chinese)

Editor
<a href="/pl/translator/m-naomi" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1287215">M Naomi</a>
Dołączył/a: 11.04.2016

As for Japanese, Kanji, Katakana,and Hiragana are all the same.
They have same pronunciation, so if you write them in alphabet, they are equal.
So from Kanji to Katakana(we rarely use it) or Hiragana is not translation, but transliteration.

Moderator ᐂ
<a href="/pl/translator/alma-barroca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Dołączył/a: 05.04.2012
Туна Ченевская wrote:

By the way, is it possible for LT to auto translate Simplified Chinese to Traditional Chinese and vice versa, just like the auto transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin alphabet? It is technically possible as Google Translate and Wikipedia have such auto translation system. Then no one would bother doing such translation, and readers can choose the script they are comfortable with.

Tagging [@lt] here, because it's them who add/remove languages from the Automatic transliteration tool.

Editor & Amateur Poet
<a href="/pl/translator/%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1350083">Туна Ченевская</a>
Dołączył/a: 21.08.2017

In case of characters having different forms, I observed that many sites (Wikipedia, GT, Baidu, etc.) created wordlists as large as possible to include words using each form, so that they can decide which form to use in converting the words. However, there might be mistakes especially when encountering names. I suggest that [@lt] may allow native speakers to edit auto transliteration, highlighting the edited part in another color or font. I'm saying so because I've spotted Chinese pinyin auto transliteration making mistakes, especially on polyphones. Russian auto transliteration also makes mistakes when there are words not following regular pronunciation rules (e.g. его is pronounced "evo", but is often displayed as "ego" in auto transliteration).

Editor & Amateur Poet
<a href="/pl/translator/%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1350083">Туна Ченевская</a>
Dołączył/a: 21.08.2017

Plus, in case of no equivalent, I suggest keeping the original character. It will be difficult technically and unnecessary if we create a new character following existing simplifying rules using TrueType Wink smile

Editor in search of Anningan & Malina
<a href="/pl/translator/anerneq" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1112972">Anerneq</a>
Dołączył/a: 10.05.2012
Joyce Su wrote:

My suggestion is to change the points as doing transliteration from 10 points to 2 points when the user select the translation in Chinese language.

Transliterations are already worth one single point from any language. Only translations and collections are worth 10 points.

Туна Ченевская wrote:

Russian auto transliteration also makes mistakes when there are words not following regular pronunciation rules (e.g. его is pronounced "evo", but is often displayed as "ego" in auto transliteration).

"Его" should actually be transliterated as "yego/ jego", despite its pronunciation. A transliteration system is not supposed to be a phonetic transcription (we have IPA for that purpose), but merely to write a language in a different writing system.
That said, the autotransliteration system for Russian has more problems in those cases where "е" is used instead of "ё". I saw such dreadful things as "ещё" being transliterated as "yeshche".

Editor & Amateur Poet
<a href="/pl/translator/%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1350083">Туна Ченевская</a>
Dołączył/a: 21.08.2017

Thanks for clarifying about the Russian transliteration part, Joshua. But still, the Chinese pinyin auto transliteration has huge amount of problems. In regular pinyin system, polyphones have different pinyin equivalents. That said, pinyin system is exactly indicating how Chinese characters should be pronounced. (As we know, unlike most of languages, pronunciation of Chinese characters can't be predicted merely by what it looks like.) That's why I'm suggesting an auto translation editing feature, giving accessibility to native speakers only.

Editor & Amateur Poet
<a href="/pl/translator/%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1350083">Туна Ченевская</a>
Dołączył/a: 21.08.2017

Spammer, reported.

Editor
<a href="/pl/translator/paulpaulpolly" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1230433">paulpaulpolly</a>
Dołączył/a: 28.12.2014

I think having an editing function for auto transliteration may be losing the point of having it in the first place. If the auto transliteration is problematic for Chinese and Russian, maybe we can:

1) make suggestions on the list of characters that needs extra rules on auto transliteration. I've noticed just now that it is available to some extent in Japanese (e.g. from "は" to "ha" or "wa" depending on its semantic function).

2) add a line saying "Automatic transliteration. May contain errors." at the end of the auto transliteration of Chinese and Russian. This feature is available for Japanese as well. I suppose it is hard to cover all exceptions, so we can submit manual transliteration to cover the rest.

Editor
<a href="/pl/translator/paulpaulpolly" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1230433">paulpaulpolly</a>
Dołączył/a: 28.12.2014

Going back to our discussion on Traditional/Simplified Chinese, so we are considering two auto transliterations for each songs in Chinese or its dialects:

1. One for phonetic romanisation as usual, if it is available for the language / dialect.

2. One for the conversion of writing system, i.e. either "from Trad. Chinese to Simp. Chinese" or "from Simp. Chinese to Trad. Chinese"

If the lyrics are originally in Trad. Chinese, they can be transformed into Simp. Chinese without a problem. For Simp. Chinese, I knew there should be several exceptions having 2 forms in Trad. Chinese, but I don't know how many to be exact.

Also, if the auto transliteration is only available for lyrics section, weird thing may happen: two identical translations are submitted, one in Trad. Chinese and another in Simp. Chinese. But is it even possible to have auto transliteration for the translations technically?

Editor & Amateur Poet
<a href="/pl/translator/%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1350083">Туна Ченевская</a>
Dołączył/a: 21.08.2017

I think we can ask [@lt] if it is possible to auto convert the Chinese translations. Ideally, I would suggest it a requirement to select whether it is Trad. or Simp. when users submit a song or a translation in Chinese. Therefore, auto converter will work for the submission. Besides, there is also case that a Trad. Chinese character has 2 forms in Simp.. For example, 瞭 in 瞭解 would be simplified as 了解 while in 瞭望 it stays the same in Simp.. I think in this case we may need to input a wordlist for the converter to do the judgement. For example, when 瞭 is followed by 望, it will not be simplified.

lt
Administrator
<a href="/pl/translator/lt" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1">lt</a>
Dołączył/a: 27.05.2008
Туна Ченевская wrote:

is it possible for LT to auto translate Simplified Chinese to Traditional Chinese and vice versa

Auto transliteration has been added for Simplified Chinese ⇄ Traditional Chinese. Please check if it is correct. And thank you for the suggestion!

Editor
<a href="/pl/translator/paulpaulpolly" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1230433">paulpaulpolly</a>
Dołączył/a: 28.12.2014

Hi [@lt], thanks for your hard work on the improvements.

May I ask if it is possible:

1) to add a line saying ”Automatic transliteration. May contain errors." for all 3 Chinese auto transliterations (see also #16 and #17 for details)

2) for us to provide you a wordlist with rules to improve the accuracy of the auto transliteration (see also #16 for details)

3) to extend the auto transliteration of Simplified Chinese ⇄ Traditional Chinese to all languages / dialects that use Chinese characters. The list is here for your reference:
- Chinese (Cantonese)
- Chinese (Changsha Dialect)
- Chinese (Classical Chinese)
- Chinese (Hakka)
- Teochew
- Taiwanese Hokkien

Thanks!

Editor
<a href="/pl/translator/paulpaulpolly" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1230433">paulpaulpolly</a>
Dołączył/a: 28.12.2014

I noticed that [@lt] is working on the auto transliterations for Chinese and its dialects, so I took a brief look:

- Phonetic romanization = Chinese only [please remove the Chinese pinyin in other Chinese dialects]
- "May contain errors" message = All Chinese auto transliteration [working great, thanks!]
- Writing systems transformation = All Chinese dialects [working great, thanks!]

The problem with Chinese is that Chinese characters are not only pronounced in Mandarin. Instead, each Chinese character can be pronounced differently in various Chinese dialects, to the extent that the pronunciation can be unintelligible by language users from other Chinese dialects.

Sorry for any confusion as the situation of Chinese might be somewhat different from other languages. Please feel free to ask me for any clarifications. Thanks once again for the hard work by [@lt].

lt
Administrator
<a href="/pl/translator/lt" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1">lt</a>
Dołączył/a: 27.05.2008
paulpaulpolly wrote:

Phonetic romanization = Chinese only [please remove the Chinese pinyin in other Chinese dialects]

Removed, thanks!

paulpaulpolly wrote:

make suggestions on the list of characters that needs extra rules on auto transliteration. I've noticed just now that it is available to some extent in Japanese (e.g. from "は" to "ha" or "wa" depending on its semantic function).

For Japanese transliteration on LT, a different software is used than for Chinese and Russian. For Russian we made some custom rules of our own, but for Chinese it seems too complicated. Perhaps a more effective solution for Chinese would be to enable google transliteration.

Editor
<a href="/pl/translator/paulpaulpolly" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1230433">paulpaulpolly</a>
Dołączył/a: 28.12.2014

I understand now. I think this works fine for Chinese. Thanks for the hard work!