What Makes A Literary Translation Great?

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Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020
Pending moderation

Editor and translator Katy Derbyshire posed the question to ten professional practitioners around the world here. Interesting piece.

For a while, it has been understood that many 5-star ratings in LT have been more social-media 'likes' than concrete 'evaluations'. The above is the professional's view on the question of 'rating'.

What do you think makes a translation 'correct'? What makes it 'great'?

EDIT: A misconception might worth mentioning. To be a great translation, the result doesn't need to feel great. A perfect translation of a heinous text, should feel as heinous in the destination language as in the source language.

Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020

Personally, I believe the translation first needs to be 'correct'(understanding the original, context and background, and correct and fluent equivalents, both in form and content, in the destination language). Then the ideal translation is the one that provides equal (ideally the same) user experience to the informed native reader in the destination language, as the informed native reader's experience in the source language. If a Shakespeare's poem feels technically amazing and exhilarating to an informed native English speaker, it should feel the same in the translation. The same is true for a Shakira song, e.g. feeling 'the dancing of the words' in the translation.

Editor Soldier of Love
<a href="/pt-br/translator/flopsi" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1331196">Flopsi <div class="editor_icon" title="Editor" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 12.03.2017

To be honest I'm most happy seeing correct translations - they don't need to be great.

Of course it's a joy to read great translations by MagicMulder, Wolfgang Riedmann or Bertram Kottmann. Why are those so grand translators? Wolfgang Riedmanns translations of Shakespeare are just what they are supposed to be - Shakespeare written in German. And Bertram Kottmann? All his rhymes sound so effortlessly, so natural. They are just wonderful. MagicMulder always seems to go to the core, dig it out to tell us what's it all about.

So a great translation needs to be correct (which is hard enough) and a joy to read.

Convidado
Convidado

I concur with [@Flopsi], especially regarding Wolfgang and Bertram’s translations which are so good, they are inspiring.

“MagicMulder always seems to go to the core, dig it out to tell us what's it all about.”

So do you Andrea and for that I also really enjoy reading your translations.

Editor Soldier of Love
<a href="/pt-br/translator/flopsi" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1331196">Flopsi <div class="editor_icon" title="Editor" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 12.03.2017

Thank you, Geborgenheit! You're so sweet. It's good you didn't give up on us.

Editor
<a href="/pt-br/translator/domuro" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1285298">domuro <div class="editor_icon" title="Editor" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 29.03.2016

Hello BlueBird, thank you for starting this interesting discussion. As a bilingual person from birth on I think that a translation first has to render the meaning of what was said or written. But with literature things get more complicated, and I am not the person to translate books; sometimes I try poems on this site, but I only can translate them, when I get the meaning. Mostly I translate songs thinking, that people just want to know: "what is she/he singing about?" and I try to stick to the words. And I am a fan of the retranslation into the original language.
Another thing is: making translations from translation, what happens on this site. Many times mistranslations from the first translation are translated! So in my opinion people who do translate should know the original language well.

Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020

Hi domuro. Technically letting others know 'what have been said' (like e.g. in a business or casual meeting) is called [oral] 'interpretation' (although it is commonly called translation). Interpretation is more about the meaning of the words and general idea. I understand in translation (esp. in translating literature), we don't wish to just hear the words, we wish to 'hear the voice' of the author.

There are other ways to verify in indirect translation, e.g. using comparing different (middle) translations, checking dubious parts in the middle language with its translator, or other people who speak the source language, etc.

Mestre
<a href="/pt-br/translator/klaarzin" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1517013">Klaarzin </a>
Associou-se em: 04.11.2021

Thanks @BlueBird for this topic. What makes a translation great? I really don't have anything substantial to add to what the ten professional translators and Katy Derbyshire say about it.
For me, translating is a craft. It starts with having a good command of both languages. The translation must be 'correct' in the way that Blue Bird has described:

BlueBird wrote:

understanding the original, context and background, and correct and fluent equivalents, both in form and content, in the destination language

That is difficult enough. It is even more difficult when it comes to poetry. (Prose is not allowed on LT.) Good poetry evokes what cannot be said directly.
How do you do that in another language? And how much freedom do you take? With these 'how' questions, I adopt the view of a craftsman. If you want to be a poet in the first place, why do you translate? On the other hand, it requires great sensitivity to convey the indefinable and unsayable in a translation. So a translator of poetry must have a touch of a poet in him or her.

For me, the source always comes first, so I want to stay as close to the text as possible. In many translations on LT more liberty is taken. When it comes to the question whether a translation is great, the reader is the judge. But "the reader" does not exist. As @florbox rightly said, "Greatness is in the eye of the beholder". But there is more to be said to it in my opinion. That has been done in the article, that BlueBird has provided. For instance:
David Colmar: "A good translation is something to aspire to and, in this perfectionist’s profession, a good translation is never good enough."
Alex Zucker: "But it does mean that I don’t have the liberty to write a “strange” work when the author’s was “normal”, or “normalise” the writing when the author meant to be unorthodox. If I do, the result may still be “good”, but rather than a translation, it might be more accurate to call it an adaptation."
Ros Schwartz: "a good translation sings"
Saskia Vogel: "When translations don’t feel like they have been written – where the reader becomes too aware of the mechanics of the writing – and simply ‘are’ that’s when they’re good."
Julia Sherwoord: "a piece of music that has been arranged for different instruments but evokes an emotional response as close to the effect of the original as possible".
OK, these are metaphors, but doesn't it say enough?
A translator also reads his or her own translation (preferably several times before publication). With good sensitivity one can sense what the translation will evoke in most readers. That is the beauty of language: it cannot only communicate facts, but can also evoke associations, connotations and emotional values. Translating poems is something for perfectionists. The perfect translation does not exist. What a translator wants is therefore unattainable. But that's no reason not to try. He or she might even make a great translation.

Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020

If you insist on putting it poetically, I suggest the phantom of the opera's description "I'm the mask you wear / It's me they hear" (author says to the translator :) )

Mestre
<a href="/pt-br/translator/uji-na" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1496118">uji na </a>
Associou-se em: 06.04.2021
Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you talking about the issue of the consistency? A 'correct' translation needs to be consistent. However, being consistent doesn't necessarily mean preserving the original author's 'style'.

Mestre
<a href="/pt-br/translator/uji-na" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1496118">uji na </a>
Associou-se em: 06.04.2021

Hi, sorry I started different answer. I see, thank you for your explanation.
I was trying to answer this question. "What do you think makes a translation 'correct'? What makes it 'great'?"

I found many people believing that when it comes to new line, they differentiate previous story. Which is very wrong.

Mestre
<a href="/pt-br/translator/uji-na" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1496118">uji na </a>
Associou-se em: 06.04.2021

I hope you don't feel offended about my answer. Sorry if my answer is irrelevant to this thread. If you wish to delete my comment I can do so.
Thank you. from uji na.

Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020

Not at all. Your comment was relevant and is appreciated.

Mestre
<a href="/pt-br/translator/uji-na" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1496118">uji na </a>
Associou-se em: 06.04.2021

I am really happy and glad to hear that. I thought you guys are all angry at me. :) you are very kind.

Editor (Resident Evil)
<a href="/pt-br/translator/magicmulder" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1264038">magicmulder <div class="editor_icon" title="편집자" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 26.10.2015

For me there's basically three levels (that are not necessarily ranked in that order):

Level 1 is a translation that is syntactically correct and is a sufficiently clear representation of the source. It refrains from too much interpretation and tries to let the reader draw their own conclusion.
Metaphors are translated into the respective metaphor of the target language.
This usually fails if the source is very poetic and heavily uses complex imagery.

Ex. "X stand behind the mic like Walter Cronkite" => "XZibit stands behind the mic like Walter Cronkite, [footnote: A famous US news anchor]"

Level 2 is a translation that conveys an interpretation of images/metaphors in the source. This can be clearer than (1), especially if source metaphors don't easily translate to a target metaphor but has the disadvantage that nuances and multi-layered meanings can get lost.

Ex. "X stand behind the mic like Walter Cronkite" => "XZibit stands behind the mic like [name of a famous news anchor in the countries where the target language is spoken]"

Level 3 is what I'd call a re-creation in the literal sense - one work of art translated into another work of art. This is for example what happens with the "equirhythmic rhyming singable" trifecta.

I used to write mostly level 1 translations (and the occasional level 3 if I felt creative) but have switched to level 2 where the source is really tricky (though it requires a bunch of footnotes sometimes). You can't really translate Red Hot Chili Peppers without some degree of interpretation, for example.

Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020

Thanks for the input. I'm not sure what you specifically imply by 'representing' and 'interpreting' the source. Are you talking about 'word-for-word' (literal) vs 'sense-for-sense' continuum of translation strategies? Your examples seem to be more about domestication vs. foreignization. Could you please elaborate?

 

About 'recreation', being equirhytmic, rhyming, singable, etc seems more about preserving (or sometimes improve) the form of the original. Literature is hard to define, but some believe what makes poems a pleasure are imagery, literary devices, ideas, music of words, etc. Preserving (or improving) the form (music of words, literary devices, etc) can come at the cost of losing the content (ideas, imagery, etc).  Where do you draw the line?

Editor (Resident Evil)
<a href="/pt-br/translator/magicmulder" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1264038">magicmulder <div class="editor_icon" title="편집자" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 26.10.2015

A good example for representing vs. interpreting is https://lyricstranslate.com/en/creedence-clearwater-revival-who039ll-sto...
An interpreting translation would for example translate "Long as I remember the rain been comin' down" as "Bad times have been going on for as long as I can remember".

As for recreation, it's indeed a broad issue. Hofstadter's book talks at length about whether to translate "S. Pereulok" in Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment" as "S. Lane", or to use external knowledge to resolve the abbreviation into a full name, and/or whether to translate the full name or keep it as a proper name. And whether it may be proper to move the entire action from Saint Petersburg to, say, London in the process.

Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020

I'm sorry, but the first example seems a mistranslation to me.' The rain coming down' doesn't seem to be an idiom here.

The second one is an extreme case of domestication. The result would be an adaptation, not translation.

Mestre
<a href="/pt-br/translator/klaarzin" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1517013">Klaarzin </a>
Associou-se em: 04.11.2021

The topic is "What makes a literary translation great?". Both of you are talking about the craft of translating. That is important, but not the whole story. I will put my ten cents in.
As for the ideological choice between domestication vs. foreignization I take the view that domestication is wrong, because it underestimates the reader. And let there be some challenge for the reader to dive into the culture of the source language.
As for the two examples of @magicmulder I am with @Bluebird. The first example is not an interpretation, but an explanation. That is underestimating the reader. The second example is, I agree, an extreme case of domestication.

BlueBird wrote:

About 'recreation', being equirhytmic, rhyming, singable, etc seems more about preserving (or sometimes improve) the form of the original. Literature is hard to define, but some believe what makes poems a pleasure are imagery, literary devices, ideas, music of words, etc. Preserving (or improving) the form (music of words, literary devices, etc) can come at the cost of losing the content (ideas, imagery, etc).  Where do you draw the line?

In my opinion one should stay as close to the source text as possible. Or else it will become an adaptation, which is fine. But please don't present it then as a translation. Where do you draw the line, indeed?
I think there is no general answer. In each particular case each individual reader decides for himself or herself and maybe reads a great translation.

Editor Soldier of Love
<a href="/pt-br/translator/flopsi" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1331196">Flopsi <div class="editor_icon" title="Editor" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 12.03.2017

Ah, here we go again. We're translating lyrics and LT is all about lyrics and poems. And why is this so? Because song texts are lyrical texts set to music and poems sometimes sound like music without music.
If we'd translate prose I'd stick to bluebird and Klaarzin, but we do translate lyrics and somebody once told me "you should translate lyrics only if you do understand them". See in Germany you're about to have at least five years of English language education. So Germans understand English quite wellI and I don't underestimate any reader. They wouldn't read my translations if they'd understand the lyrics. And that's the reason why I keep my translations as plain and clear as they can be.

Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020

I'm not sure what you mean 'sticking with bluebird'. If this is about my view of the examples in my previous comment, those examples are still simply mistranslation and adaptation to me for reasons stated. You can argue why you think they are not, but just 'keeping translation plain and clear as they can be' is no excuse for mistranslation. Supposed 'simplicity' can have nothing to do with 'correctness', and was not my point.

Also, the topic is about literary translation, where poetry, and somehow lyrics, are subparts of it. Your comment touches one of the points of this topic. What is 'correct' translation? 'Plain and simple' sure doesn't mean 'correct' translation.

Editor (Resident Evil)
<a href="/pt-br/translator/magicmulder" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1264038">magicmulder <div class="editor_icon" title="편집자" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 26.10.2015
BlueBird wrote:

I'm sorry, but the first example seems a mistranslation to me.' The rain coming down' doesn't seem to be an idiom here.

It's not an idiom, it's a metaphor, and the translation example is strictly interpretative. And that's pretty much where the discussion about "correct" begins - is it "incorrect" (because it reduces the original to a single interpretation) or is a literal translation "incorrect" (because it doesn't help the reader understand what is being meant, for example rain may not be a typical metaphor for tears/bad times in the target language, and you don't really want to claim the song is about the weather ;) )? For example you'd have a problem if you translate "she wore that white dress" literally into Japanese because white is the color of mourning in Japan, and a reader of the translation won't be able to understand it refers to a wedding dress.

Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020

I beg to differ. A metaphor, by definition, is  a figure of speech that, for rhetorical effect, directly refers to one thing by mentioning another. [Poetic] imagery is different. You can simply say 'It's raining blood', and I believe other languages clearly gets the rhetoric by the literal meaning of the word, since it's imagery. Translating it as 'There is a massacre' is a lame explanation, void of the rhetoric, and wrong

That translation suggested simply and unnecessarily ruins both the meaning and the strong poetic imagery in the original. Definitely a mistranslation.

Long as I remember
The rain been comin' down
Clouds of myst'ry pourin'
Confusion on the ground

About Japanese mourning culture, it's cultural difference. Easily can be fixed by a footnote or by [] "She wore a [mourning] white dress". Poem analysis is not translation. 

Editor Soldier of Love
<a href="/pt-br/translator/flopsi" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1331196">Flopsi <div class="editor_icon" title="Editor" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 12.03.2017

I'm not sure what you specifically imply with starting this topic or maybe it's just me that can't grab the significance of this.

I thought it might be fun to read comments about what makes a translation great. That's why I commented on it. Somehow I get the impression this is only to tell us your point of view. To keep this short: Magicmulder is our best German/English English/German translator here and you will find no German translator to say any different. Absolutely not one single one. His translations are correct and that's a fact. And don't care to reply on this. I unsubscribed. Have a nice day.

Guru
<a href="/pt-br/translator/bluebird" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1483017">BlueBird <div class="author_icon" title="Page author" ></div></a>
Associou-se em: 27.12.2020

I think it is possible to have a civil technical discussion about translation theory (and not En-Ge translation), without accusing others with conspiracy theories. You're trying to force your opinion, which is exactly what you're accusing others of doing.

You've got it totally wrong. Have a nice day!

EDIT: I don't consider 'because I say so' opinions valid technical reasoning. Technical reasons re those examples being mistranslations still stand

Mestre
<a href="/pt-br/translator/klaarzin" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1517013">Klaarzin </a>
Associou-se em: 04.11.2021

It is a pity that this topic is taking a nasty turn. If I contributed by being too outspoken in my opinions - just opinions - I apologize to whomever takes offence.