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Pre-Soviet Russian

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Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022
Pending moderation

I recently-ish transcribed and translated a song from Pre-Soviet Russian (when I say Pre-Soviet Russian, I mean Russian before the Soviet Reforms to the language), to modern Russian. When the site asked about what language the song was in, I put the original language as Russian dialect. Was setting the song language as Russian dialect okay, or should I have done something else? There isn't an option to select Pre-Soviet Russian on this site, and if I had set the original language to Russian, I wouldn't be able to translate the song to modern Russian. So what would be my best option from now on?

Expert
<a href="/ru/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Регистрация: 16.12.2017

And what is pre-Soviet Russian? I am not that old

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

So in like the early 1900's, Russian had like 39 letters I think. It was the usual 33 letters, with the six removed letters. The letters were "Іі" which made the same sound as "И," you might recognize it from Ukrainian; there was "Ѣѣ" which could make one of two sounds, "е" and "ей"; then there was "Ѳѳ" which made a "th" sound as in thanks, this, or that; and finally there was "Ѵѵ" which made the sound "И" or "В" depending on where it was placed. Also words that end with consonants ended with a "Ъ"; it used to make the "uh" sound, but by the 1910's had no real sound. I think that's about it.

Expert
<a href="/ru/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Регистрация: 16.12.2017

Do you mean
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ять
И иже с ними?

And does anyone really care about this?

Oh, and don't call it a dialect

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

So for the first thing, Ѣ is kinda important when trying to stay true to a song. It's more about just getting it down the way it was to begin. My best example I can think of is with the word Дети. In modern russian it's pronounced Dyeti, but in the pre-soviet reforms was pronounced Dyeahti. It's small things like that which make trying to preserve it have some value. Then the same for Ѳ, while today it's an f sound, that th sound is just different enough to really make a difference. Now izhe has no real value. Izhitsa has some value in the rare chances it is pronounced under a double-grave accent or as an ih sound. And the same thing goes for the ъ being at the ends of words, some artists back then still made the sound if they were educated enough about it.

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

I also just thought about how if there was a song in church slavonic, there's no option for it. There's OCS (old church slavonic) but no church slavonic. It would be another inconsistency with languages when putting songs down. Like I see bogoroditse devo (a church slavonic song) has been transcribed under both russian and OCS even though neither of those are correct.

Expert
<a href="/ru/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Регистрация: 16.12.2017

I am going to be silent from now, I've never heard Slavonic and don't believe in God

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

you do you

Senior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2-2021" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499224">Кирилл Соколов 2021</a>
Регистрация: 02.05.2021

Реформ русского алфавита было две:
В 1708—1710 годах и в 1918 году.
Про глаголицу можно не вспоминать - это древняя история. После нее была Старославянская азбука.

Но язык при этом как был русским, так и остался. Люди не стали говорить иначе. Даже если бы мы перешли с кириллицы на латиницу, язык на котором мы говорим все равно остался бы русским.

https://lyricstranslate.com/ru/voyna-s-nemtsami-voyna-s-nemcami.html
Эта песня на обычном русском языке, в старой орфографии.

Церковнославянский язык - это вообще отдельная тема.

Master
<a href="/ru/translator/kevin-rainbow" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1454922">Kevin Rainbow</a>
Регистрация: 03.05.2020

The different letters usually don't indicate a different dialect.
For example, here is Lermontov's poem Цевница with older spellings.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=KRReAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=google+b...

Same dialect, but with some different spellings.

Here is a handy summary of the spelling differences (for anyone interested) -
https://sites.google.com/site/seesscm/pre-reform-russian-orthography-che...

Expert
<a href="/ru/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Регистрация: 16.12.2017

Don't call it dialect

Moderator poromboessara 👨🏻‍🏫📚✍🏻👨🏻
<a href="/ru/translator/alma-barroca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Регистрация: 05.04.2012

Allow me to give my two cents?

According to Wikipedia this is more of a change/update in Cyrillic than a whole language change (which would include structure, grammar, lexicon, etc.). These letters are just not used anymore, so in my opinion (as a linguist, who doesn't speak Russian but understand some of Cyrillic), it is not much to add 'Pre-Soviet' as something, specially because there's no such language. 'Early Russian' would mean the actual opposite of it, though. If current Russian spelling doesn't use said letters, we can't do much, we have to follow orthography guidelines for the language(s) - even if there's a letter that better conveys a phoneme. But if an old text has those letters, then it's fine, I believe most -if not all- Russian speakers are able to recognize an archaic letter should they find one.

Side note: Don't say 'Russian dialect'. Russian is a language, which lots (I dare say tons) of dialects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Cyrillic_alphabet

As for 'Church Slavonic', it seems to be used only in very specific and restrict contexts, which is likely why you won't find it added here - it doesn't even have native speakers. Ethnologue doesn't even have much information about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Slavonic / https://www.ethnologue.com/language/chu
If you happen to find prayers/etc. in modern Church Slavonic and add them here, we can add it as a language. Pre-Soviet Russian, I'm afraid, will never be added.

Expert
<a href="/ru/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Регистрация: 16.12.2017

There's a lot of dialects in Russia. Москвичи акают, волжане окают, уральцы чёкают, etc.
Old Slavic or Church Slavonic is not a dialect. It is like Latin in Catholics prayers
"Pre-Soviet " Russian is kinda sorta like English in Shakespeare's poems. Who would ever want to translate apple to apple?

Senior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2-2021" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499224">Кирилл Соколов 2021</a>
Регистрация: 02.05.2021

https://lyricstranslate.com/ru/voyna-s-nemtsami-voyna-s-nemcami.html
That's not a translation, that's a transliteration. I think it should be corrected.

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

Thank you. I will say that Church Slavonic is definitely in many ways its own language. The language is primarily used for church songs. It's sort of like how some churches today sing songs in Latin, even though no one really uses it on a day to day basis. With Church Slavonic, it is definitely different from OCS in grammar in words. Here's an example of Church Slavonic vs OCS: first is Church Slavonic "Тогда̀ прихо́дитъ і҆и҃съ ѿ галїле́и на і҆ѻрда́нъ ко і҆ѡа́ннꙋ крⷭ҇ти́тисѧ ѿ негѡ̀." and here is OCS "тогда прідє Іисѹсъ отъ Галілеѩ на Иорданъ. къ Иоанѹ крьстіті сѧ отъ него." Now I do get something like not making glagolitsa a language since it is just OCS with other letters instead: "ⱅⱁⰳⰴⰰ ⱂⱃⰻⰴє Ⰻⰺⱄⱆⱄⱏ ⱁⱅⱏ Ⰳⰰⰾⰻⰾⰵⱗ ⱀⰰ Ⰺⱁⱃⰴⰰⱀⱏ. ⰽⱏ Ⰺⱁⰰⱀⱆ ⰽⱃⱐⱄⱅⰻⱅⰻ ⱄⱔ ⱁⱅⱏ ⱀⰵⰳⱁ." But anyways, thank you for understanding.

Senior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2-2021" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499224">Кирилл Соколов 2021</a>
Регистрация: 02.05.2021

Церковнославянский - это искусственный богослужебный язык, созданный на основе солунского диалекта. В отличие от латыни и древнегреческого (койне), на нем никто никогда не говорил.

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

Church Slavonic was in fact a language dating back to the medieval era to tsar peter's reform to the russian language. Though you are correct that it is not a being used as an everyday language today. The only place it really has today is in old orthodox churches.

Super Member
<a href="/ru/translator/%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1516495">Мирин</a>
Регистрация: 29.10.2021

Soviet made the reforms coz Russian writing obsolete. Some letters became unnecessary

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

Languages don't usually remove letters for being obsolete. Look at English, we have the letter x and don't use ks to replace it at all times; we had the letter wynn "ƿ" but use "w" instead even though wynn makes more sense; we had thorn "Þ" and eth "Ð" which would be the "th" in "thumb" and the "th" in "thanks" respectively; we had ash "Æ" which sounded like the "a" in "ate" making the letter a more consistent; we used ampersand "&" instead of writing "and" for convenience. You see, languages do their own things; it isn't always about writing becoming obsolete. In the case of Russian, it was actually out of convenience more than things becoming obsolete. Just as English keeps letters that don't always have a special use, like the letter "c" making the "k" or "s" sounds, Russian could have kept izhitsa, thita, yat, decimal i, and having a hard yer at the end of words. The reason the language removed the letters was actually as a way to make the Russian writing system more accessible to the general public. The decimal i had no purpose and was only put when there were things like semivowels and some vowels, yet could also break the vowel requirement sometimes, just as the letter "q" has to be followed by a "u" almost all the time, yet we have exceptions like in arabic words or abbreviations with a q in them, and q could just be replaced by a k. They are almost identical in circumstances. Izhitsa is very much like the letter "c" except for the fact that "c" cam be a "k" or an "s" which are both vowels, while Izhitsa can be a "в" or "и" instead. I will say Izhitsa was quite obsolete, only really showing up in some words. The problem was, people who weren't highly educated didn't know in what words an Izhitsa belonged; for that reason it was removed. Thita made the same "th" sound as "eth" which was the "th" in "thanks." It was used mostly in names like theodore and a few actual words. They could have just left it, but for convenience it was replaced with "ф" instead. So instead of having thita, every "th" was an "f" now. We had "hard yer" "ъ" which added an "uh" sound to words and was at the end of almost every word with a consonant (otherwise there would be a soft yer or nothing). It was removed because its original sound was lost by the commoners; only rich people made the sound at the end of the words really. It was also removed because many commoners didn't know when to add the letter correctly. The reason soft yer was not removed was because its sound is still being kinda used. Then we have yat, the letter was the biggest class divide in Russian writing. There are a bunch of rules on it's sound depending on its placement, and only the top aristocrats really knew where to put it. It made a "yay" sound, a "yeh" sound, and a "ya" sound; the sound it made depended on its placement. On top having to know how to real it correctly, people would have to know what words to write it in. Because of that, it was removed. So in the end, Russian writing wasn't reformed fully for being obsolete, but was reformed as a way to meet the Soviet agenda of making everything accessible to everyone. English is a perfect example of letters that we could add or remove, but we have it the way it is still. Sorry for the history lecture, but I feel like I have to back up my statement with some facts.

Expert
<a href="/ru/translator/cph1776" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1467452">cph1776</a>
Регистрация: 21.08.2020

A PLAN FOR THE IMPROVEMENT OF ENGLISH SPELLING
by Mark Twain*

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet.

The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later.

Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.

Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants.

Bai iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.

Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

(* Although many people have attributed the "Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling" to Mark Twain, most Twain scholars doubt that this attribution is accurate. It has also (and probably more accurately) been attributed to one M.J. Yilz, in a letter he wrote to the journal The Economist).

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

I honestly agree with almost everything except the removal of the letter y, as it is it's own sound, that really cannot be described with an "I". Otherwise the whole "c," "y," and "x" being "ch," "sh," and "th," I believe "c" should be "ch" as was done in latin and italian, but "sh" should be "ʃ," as it was that way in old latin; and "x" being "th" has the problem of the two "th's." We have "th" as in "thanks," and "th" as in "thumb." So just replace it with "Ð" and "Þ" respectively.

Senior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2-2021" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499224">Кирилл Соколов 2021</a>
Регистрация: 02.05.2021

It's so funny, when someone is tryng to teach us - Russians our own language.
😁

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

That's what I do best! Regular smile

Senior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2-2021" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499224">Кирилл Соколов 2021</a>
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It was a sarcastic message.

If you want to ask something regarding russian language - you welcome. But do not try to be a techer of language, you don't speak. As I understood, you can read in old slavonic. But it's not russian. Don't try to extend your wision of old slavonic to russian language. It is the different language.

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

I was kinda being sarcastic as well if you didn't get that. I get that OCS and Russian are two completely different languages. It's like trying to compare Anglo-Saxon to English. I am in no way trying to teach Russian, or else I'd be in a school teaching Russian as a job. While I am in no way a fluent Russian speaker, having studied Slavic languages and the history of them has given me an understanding of how sounds and phonetics are not consistent between pre-reform and post-reform Russian. While a Russian person can hear a recording of a Russian speaking in the late 19th to early 20th century and still understand them, in a phonetic point of view, there is a lot going on. You have to realize it's not apple to apples saying that Russian and OCS are different, as there is the original OCS-Russian dialect, but it would be an injustice if I failed to acknowledge that it isn't apples to apples in many ways, such as how even in the pre-soviet reform, there were still letters already removed in the 18th century of tsar peter. There is a big difference between the ~45 consistent letters of OCS; the 37 letters of the pre-reform Russian, and the 33 letters of the modern language. If I did have to choose between saying that Russian and OCS are more similar or different, I would have to admit that they are more different, and because of that, you are more than right to say that Russian and OCS are not the same. Though with that said, OCS has near no place in what I am trying to convey, what I am using as data for the letters is strictly set to the soviet era. I am not bringing up the older letters and variants, such as how "я" would be "Ꙗ" in OCS, because the old variant had no place in the writing system at the time. I am only building up my claim with evidence from the era.

Expert
<a href="/ru/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Регистрация: 16.12.2017

I am just curious, do you know a lot of people who read 105+ years old Russian with "yatyes" (sorry, I don't have those letters on my keyboard)?

Moderator poromboessara 👨🏻‍🏫📚✍🏻👨🏻
<a href="/ru/translator/alma-barroca" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1110108">Alma Barroca</a>
Регистрация: 05.04.2012

Just pointing out that in Portuguese, letters K/W/Y were only officialized again as part of our alphabet in 2009... Of course said letters weren't obsolete, they just were used in so few contexts that they were even forgotten when teaching kids the alphabet... No surprise I was taught how to read by associating K with kiwi and Y with yoyo (which aren't Portuguese words) Wink smile

What I mean with this is that if current Russian spelling doesn't use those letters, there's no reason to add them to any text. If older texts have them, then it's fine. And of course, translations into Russian are all expected to be in Modern Russian... As lge mentioned, I'm sure Russian keyboards don't even offer those characters any longer, so why insist on using them? It's an archaism...

Expert
<a href="/ru/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Регистрация: 16.12.2017

LOL, yoyo in Russian sounds very funny and maybe even inappropriate 🤣

Senior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2-2021" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499224">Кирилл Соколов 2021</a>
Регистрация: 02.05.2021

Еще раз: никто никогда не говорил на церковнославянском. Ни до Перта ни после. Церковнославянский - придуманный язык, интонационно приближенный к греческому, чтобы богослужение было больше похоже на византийское. Вне богослужения священники всегда говорили на русском языке.

И самое главное: орфография - это не язык. Орфография может быть разной, но язык при этом один - русский.
Да, язык со временем может изменяться, какие-то слова и обороты устаревают, а какие-то появляются, но это все равно тот-же самый язык. Способ записи никак не влияет на язык. Запиши его так, или по-другому - это всего лишь запись одного и того-же языка.

На данном ресурсе переводят один язык на другой. Здесь не переводят из одного написания в другое. Если так хочется блеснуть своими знаниями в истории орфографии, то это не тот ресурс.

Не существует никакого предсоветского русского языка. И допетровского русского языка тоже нет. Есть только различное написание. А язык он был и есть русский.
Безграмотные люди вообще не умели писать. Но при этом говорили на русском языке. Устная речь первична, а способ записи вторичен.

Expert
<a href="/ru/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Регистрация: 16.12.2017

Так и есть!

Master
<a href="/ru/translator/kevin-rainbow" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1454922">Kevin Rainbow</a>
Регистрация: 03.05.2020

You must know that merely changing ѣ to е, i to и and removing final-position ъ don't qualify as a translation. Even someone who doesn't know Russian can do that.

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

Once again: many people spoke Church Slavonic. It was not an invented language, it was the process of Old Church Slavonic modernizing into Church Slavonic. It meant that when writing, many words were changed in some spelling, and some words were added, such as "Ѿ" which acted in the was an ampersand was, by abbreviating a word; in the case of "Ѿ" it abbreviated от (Ѡтъ). When Tsar Peter reformed Russian for the first time, the orthodox church wanted to keep Church Slavonic, and many people regarded Peter as the antichrist for reforming the language. If you are talking about Church Slavonic after Peter's reform, then you would be correct that it was artificially preserved. The language was never constructed for the church, it was an existing language that tried to preserve its identity.

Regarding changing "Ѣ" for "е" or "я"; changing "Ѳ" for "ф"; changing "і" for "и"; and taking out "ъ" from the ends of words, I did it unsure if all Russians knew how to read the letters before the soviet reform, as I didn't know if every person knew the rules for "Ѣ" and I wanted to preserve the original sound. I assumed since most Russians cannot read the Russian dialect of Old Church Slavonic fluently, that the letters from before 1918 would be difficult to follow as well. Every Russian friend I have ever met has been unable to read Russian from before the soviet reform, so I assumed the most Russians cannot read it, but as you've made it aware to me, Russians are more that capable of understanding the rules of the language from before the soviet reform. I am sorry for underestimating your and all Russian's abilities to read their language. As I am not a Russian, I have no place treating Pre-reform Russian as a language that cannot be understood.

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

I am the only person I personally know who can read Church Slavonic, Old Church Slavonic, Glagolitsa, and pre-soviet-reform Russian. Also, I don't think anyone really has any of the old letters on their keyboard. Even the church slavonic keyboard lacks them

Senior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2-2021" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1499224">Кирилл Соколов 2021</a>
Регистрация: 02.05.2021

Открываем учебник по славянской филологии и читаем:

Родословие русского литературного языка приходится начинать очень издалека, со времени славянских первоучителей св. равноапостольных Кирилла и Мефодия. Как известно, св. Кирилл перевел Евангелие и некоторые другие тексты Св. Писания и литургической литературы на особый язык, который принято называть старославянским или староцерковнославянским. Язык этот с самого начала был искусственным. В основе его лежал говор славян города Солуни, принадлежавший к праболгарской группе южнопраславянских говоров, но в то же время отличавшийся от прочих говоров той же группы некоторыми чертами и в общем даже для своего времени очень архаичный. Однако живой народный говор солунских славян, разумеется, не был сам по себе приспособлен для перевода греческих литературных текстов. Св. Кириллу и его брату, св. Мефодию, продолжившему его дело после смерти св. Кирилла, пришлось ввести в солунско-славянский говор очень много новых слов. Эти новые слова были частью взяты из говора моравских славян, среди которых протекало апостольское служение св. первоучителей, частью были заимствованы из греческого, частью же были искусственно созданы из славянских элементов по образцу соответствующих греческих слов. В области синтаксических оборотов первоучители в общем сохранили основные своеобразные черты славянского языка, но все же подчинились в сильной мере влиянию греческого оригинала, так что в церковнославянском тексте отразились черты того особого греческого синтаксиса, который так характерен для греческого текста Св. Писания. Таким образом возник церковнославянский язык — язык с самого начала своего существования чисто литературный, т. е. более или менее искусственный, существенно отличающийся своим словарем, синтаксисом и стилистикой от того живого народного (солунско-славянского) говора, который лег в его основу. Именно примыкание к более древней греческой литературно-языковой традиции помогло превратить живой разговорный язык солунских славян в язык высшей духовной культуры, в язык литературный по существу.

https://coollib.com/b/231056-prokopiy-kesariyskiy-vvedenie-v-slavyanskuy...

Master
<a href="/ru/translator/kevin-rainbow" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1454922">Kevin Rainbow</a>
Регистрация: 03.05.2020

But all you did for the song "Война съ нѣмцами" was change ѣ to е, i to и, and remove final-position ъ. Not a big deal, but I think it would be a good idea to make a distinction between translation (Вмѣстѣ = together) and spelling-conversion (Вмѣстѣ = Вместе).

I would be glad to see more translations of Old Church Slavonic texts into (modern) Russian or into English. There are lots of beautiful, mesmerizing Orthodox chants/hymns.

Expert
<a href="/ru/translator/igeethecat" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1365086">Igeethecat</a>
Регистрация: 16.12.2017

Да когда же же вы поймёте, что церковнославянский и пре-реформенный-- две большие разницы?

«Отче наш, сущий на небесах!
да святится имя Твое;
да приидет Царствие Твое;
да будет воля Твоя и на земле, как на небе;
хлеб наш насущный дай нам на сей день;
и прости нам долги наши, как и мы прощаем должникам нашим;
и не введи нас в искушение, но избавь нас от лукавого.
Ибо Твое есть Царство и сила и слава во веки. Аминь.»

Junior Member
<a href="/ru/translator/yako" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1528507">yako</a>
Регистрация: 21.01.2022

I see what you mean now. How instead of Church Slavonic using only Slavic structure, it used Greek structure as well to build the language. So to get things straight, the actual language itself (with no dialects) is quite artificial, as is Latin today (not in the days when Latin was still commonly used). The reason that there were so many Greek words was because of the church clergies being influenced by Greek culture, so many Greek words and terms made it to Church Slavonic. Also, the Slavic writing system in obviously artificial, as a good amount of Greek letters show up in the Cyrillic script. The actual writing system was not only used for Church Slavonic, but many dialects used the script to write down their words. That is why Church Slavonic would be very different from the dialects in the west Kievan Rus. When Tsar Peter reformed the Russian language for the first time, it changed not only Russian spelling, but was intended to change the Church Slavonic writing system as well. That is why the actual language of OCS and Church Slavonic are the way they are. That is also why not everything from Church Slavonic has a word in Russian that sounds similar to it.

Member
<a href="/ru/translator/gleb-sinchenko" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1513566">Gleb Sinchenko</a>
Регистрация: 25.09.2021

I did not read the whole thread

Russian spelled in 100 years old orthography is still Russian.
Russian using 100 years old dictionary and grammar is just 100 years old Russian
OCS is a separate language, not Russian

Nothing to do with dialects