Реклама

Conjunctive perfect and conj. imperfect in antient Hebrew

8 posts / 0 new
Novice
<a href="/sr/translator/haroe" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1440583">haroe</a>
Датум придружења: 08.12.2019
Pending moderation

Can anyone here explain this to me? This is a paragraph called "Waw consecutive with the Perfect in Hebrew"

"The specific syntactical uses ordinarily given for perfect and imperfect without waw consecutive are accepted by the writer, although with some differences in the explanation of their origin, with the addition of a limited perfect of experience, along with the unlimited use generally recognized, which is sometimes to be translated by a present, more by a past.

The waw consecutive with the imperfect is always distinguished from the waw conjunctive by a distinct form of the conjunction, from which fact result changes in ..."

Quote from site:www.jstor.org/stable

I can hardly to understand the text. English is not my native language.

What does mean: "are accepted by the writer"
Does it mean, that if consecutive waw is not present the writer uses perfect as past and imperfect as futur? And how can I recognize the difference between cons. and conj. waw?

Now I am reading Isaiah 29:18 ( biblehub.com/text/isaiah/29-18.htm ) and the first word is wəšámə'ú.

I can transliterate the two verses from 29:17 to 29:18

haló'-'ód me'at miz'ár - wešáv levánón lakkarmel wehakkarmel layya'ar yéchášév

wešámə'ú vayyóm-hahú hachérəším divré-séfer - úmé'ófel úméchóšex - éné iwrím tir'éná(h)

On biblehub.com/text/ I read that there is conj. perf. and I don't know why this is conj. and not cons.

Senior Member
<a href="/sr/translator/olga-kalinkina" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432789">Olga Kalinkina</a>
Датум придружења: 08.09.2019

I'm quite puzzled with this bizarre formulation as well. As for the difference between waw consecutive and waw conjunctive, it's more simple: the former is a verbal prefix, changing future tense into past, the latter is a conjunction like '"and", joining two parts of speech.
Hope it was helpful in some way. )

Super Member
<a href="/sr/translator/israelwu" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1420592">IsraelWu</a>
Датум придружења: 04.05.2019

Thanks, it was quite helpful, at least to me. The formulation of the "rule/definition" in English seems so convoluted that I had to wonder if there is something more to it than a thing that (almost) everybody in Israel knows (or used to know) "intuitively". And this "waw" consecutive is, in my opinion a misnomer.
We call it something like "conversion waw" - it converts two ways, both past tense into future tense and vice versa (and we recognize when it's used and when it's just a simple conjunction)
BTW. Where in Hebrew do you find Perfect tenses and how do you recognize them? I am afraid I've never heard of them or are they perhaps artificial structures or names just to fit some kind of foreign language classification.

Senior Member
<a href="/sr/translator/olga-kalinkina" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432789">Olga Kalinkina</a>
Датум придружења: 08.09.2019

There is no special tense in Hebrew for Perfect apart from the context, as far as I know. I think, you are right, this term is used for foreign students or some linguistic classification maybe.
As for "waw" consecutive, it is used in Biblical Hebrew only, we don't use in modern language.

Super Member
<a href="/sr/translator/israelwu" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1420592">IsraelWu</a>
Датум придружења: 04.05.2019

[quote= As for "waw" consecutive, it is used in Biblical Hebrew only, we don't use in modern language.[/quote]

I write today (modern and contemporary :-). And what do you say to the following (I have to switch to Hebrew):

רבתי אתו לפני שבוע. פגשתיו למחרת ואומר לו: " רד ממני וטפס על עץ אחר ולא – עם הדגים לישון השכבתיך."
It's just to show you in Hebrew it’s not an absolute "DON'T USE". We usually don't use this form today, however we can use it and most of the people on the street have no problem understanding it. I tried to put in one sentence an every day language,a bit of slang (perhaps too dated for you) and ancient Hebrew. I don't say I could write a page or two of Biblical (or Talmudic) language on the simplest subject, but we can and do use it to underline gravity of some idea (almost like a prophecy) , a ceremonial speech or make fun or ridicule

Senior Member
<a href="/sr/translator/olga-kalinkina" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432789">Olga Kalinkina</a>
Датум придружења: 08.09.2019

You are right, perhaps I did not express it quite correctly. I meant, we usually don't use it in every day language, but it can be used for what the translators call '"high register"', or for irony', yes, absolutely. But as I can see, you know it even better than me Regular smile

Super Member
<a href="/sr/translator/israelwu" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1420592">IsraelWu</a>
Датум придружења: 04.05.2019

I would not say so. It was really you who helped me to understand, that there was nothing new for Hebrew speakers in the original comment, except, in my eyes a very, very convoluted explanation (why to make it simple if you can make it "scientific"). I just made your words, on the fringe, a little bit more precise, thanks :-)
The only thing, that seems to me unique in Hebrew (in this context) is that we had to rebuild the language and "dig" thru the layers. Now they are a little bit "scrambled" and the people can reach them more easily if they need/want to. It's still ancient and not everyday but "reachable". From what I have seen about other languages if it's dead, even for shorter periods, it's really "dead and forgotten", except for experts and in historical novels. You are always on a single level. :-)

Senior Member
<a href="/sr/translator/olga-kalinkina" class="userpopupinfo username" rel="user1432789">Olga Kalinkina</a>
Датум придружења: 08.09.2019

I am not a native Hebrew speaker, so I might be insensitive to certain nuances.)

>> From what I have seen about other languages if it's dead, even for shorter periods, it's really "dead and forgotten", except for experts and in historical novels.

Except for Greek, perhaps. They also had to "dig thru" and reconstruct a lot in their language.

Add new comment