Никогда мы не будем братьями
Mintmoon
LT
ScieraNous ne serons jamais frères
- 1. La chanson est inspirée de "We Are the World" écrite par Michael Jackson et Lionel Richie, chantée à l'origine par la formation, USA for Africa, en 1985, pour récolter des fonds afin d'aider l'Afrique, et pour partager un message de fraternité entre tous les hommes. Ici la musique et la façon de chanter sont presque les mêmes, et la chanson porte aussi un message politique et philosophique. Mais il est à l'opposé comme le montre bien le titre et ce premier ver, qui sont en désaccord avec le deuxième et le huitième ver de "We are the World" qui disent "the world must come together as one" et "We all are a part of God's great big family".
- 2. Cette affirmation entre en contradiction avec l'Histoire de l'Ukraine, qui fait partie de l'espace slave depuis plusieurs siècles.
- 3. "Vous" désigne les Russes ethniques, mais il n'est pas clair s'il s'agit seulement de ceux qui vivent en Russie, ou si sont visés aussi les 12 à 15 millions de Russes ethniques qui sont nés et vivent en Ukraine actuellement.
- 4. "Nous" désigne les auteurs et les chanteurs de la chanson, ainsi que les activistes de Maidan, auquel il faut ajouter les nationalistes des partis du Secteur Droit et de Svoboda, ainsi que ceux qui se sentent plus proche de l'Union Européenne ou des Etats-Unis que de la Russie, ce qui donne un nombre important d'Ukrainiens, mais qui est loin de représenter la totalité des Ukrainiens, par exemple au moins les deux tiers des habitants d'Odessa, de Zaparojié, de Marioupol, et de Slaviansk ne font pas partie de ce "nous".
- 5. Cela signifie notamment le refus de toute fédéralisation, bien que les populations des régions du Nord-Ouest aient une culture et une langue différentes de celles des populations des régions du Sud-Est, comme le montre très clairement, par exemple, la carte des élections présidentielles de 2010.
- 6. Laborieux dans le sens négatif du terme.
- 7. "зависть" signifie l'envie ainsi que la jalousie. Il est vrai que l'Ukraine fut l'Etat le plus riche en 1991, de tous ceux de l'ex-URSS, et que les Russes ont pu envier les Ukrainiens. Malheureusement, la situation a bien changé, l'Ukraine étant devenu l'un des Etats les plus pauvres de l'ex-URSS.
- 8. Laissons le soin aux auditeurs de juger si cette chanson fait, ou ne fait pas, des généralités racistes.
- 9. En réalité, c'est très discutable. Par exemple, la plupart des médias occidentaux sont autorisés en Russie, alors que les médias russes sont interdits en Ukraine depuis la loi du 25 mars 2014, renforcée le 9 septembre 2014, et encore durcie le 20 février 2015. Les journalistes russes ont été expulsés d'Ukraine alors que les journalistes ukrainiens peuvent travailler en Russie. La Fédération de Russie compte 37 langues d'état, et 15 langues officielles, alors qu'en Ukraine où un tiers de la population à la langue russe pour langue maternelle, le russe est banni dans les administrations, les écoles, et les médias, les noms propres sont systématiquement changés, par exemple les personnes qui s'appellent Elena, Alexandre, et Serguei sont rebaptisés contre leur gré sur leurs papiers d'identité en Olena, Olexandre et Serguii.
- 10. En effet, on a vu par exemple que des cocktails Molotov ont été utilisés pour enflammer la maison des Syndicat à Odessa et faire brûler vif les citoyens d'Odessa opposants à Maidan qui s'y étaient réfugiés.
- 11. Il y a toujours eu des armes en Ukraine, notamment pour les mafias, et les pays occidentaux en ont aussi données après Maidan.
- 12. Les enfants et les vieillards du Donbass, tués ou blessés dans leurs écoles ou leurs hôpitaux, se sont rendu compte de cette dangerosité.
- 13. Il a été prouvé qu'à Maidan, des snipers se trouvaient dans les deux camps (ce qui permet, entre autres choses, d'expliquer les policiers morts), mais la chanson est seulement à la gloire des activistes de Maidan.
- 14. Cette phrase annonce les propos de Porochenko, à Odessa, le 14 novembre 2014, quand il a dit que "leurs enfants se terreront dans les caves" en parlant de ceux des opposants à Maidan.
- 15. La démocratie du Secteur Droit, des oligarques (Porochenko, Kolomoiski, Pintchuk, Khodorkovski, John McCain, BHL, etc.) et de l'OTAN (qui a envoyé des instructeurs militaires et fait de nombreux exercices).
- 16. Une dernière chose illogique est que cette chanson est écrite et chantée en langue russe, alors que les auteurs soutiennent la loi du 25 février 2014 supprimant le statut de langue officielle régionale au russe.
Rene FabriTraduzioni di “Никогда мы не будем ...”
Jadis
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 10:00
Les commentaires sont pénibles, on se croirait sur RT ou sur Sputnik News. Est-ce que le traducteur sait par exemple que les documents officiels réalisés en Crimée à l'époque ukrainienne sont désormais refusés par les autorités russes, car "rédigés en une langue étrangère" ? Est-ce qu'il s'est penché sur le sort des Tatars de Crimée depuis l'occupation russe ?
(Edit) Cette vidéo sur Youtube a quand même fait plus de 13 millions de vues à ce jour...
Jadis
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 10:27
Pour rigoler un peu : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGZaiHokVAI
(mais ne pas le répéter à nos amis russes...)
Natur Provence
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 15:23
Bravo!
St. Sol
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 16:47
Perhaps it is worth reminding everyone why the Russian Empire annexed Crimea in the first place (in 1783). Apart from geopolitical reasons, it was to placate the people and stop Crimean Tatars from raiding and pillaging Southern Russian towns and settlements, which they did as a matter of fact until late 18th century, also engaging in slave trade by selling captured Russian villagers in Mediterranean slave markets. This practice stopped only after Russian annexation of Crimea.
St. Sol
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 17:16
More recently, after WWII Stalin might have overreacted by exiling most Crimean Tatars to Central Asia, but one can understand his reasons: these people welcomed Hitler's troops in 1941 with open arms, and after losing millions of people in WWII Stalin was not inclined to show mercy to Nazi collaborators.
St. Sol
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 17:38
If you are familiar with Nazi racial doctrine (which contemplated getting Europe rid of Jews, Gypsy, Slavic and other peoples, but certainly did not have similar plans for the French and British), you might understand why the attitudes prevailing in Russia regarding Nazi collaborators are somewhat different from other European countries. For Russia, that was the war of extermination, and everyone who collaborated with Nazis sealed his fate.
Natur Provence
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 17:51
see here: France and Netherlands
Natur Provence
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 18:09
There are only two ways out of a civil war: forgiveness or extermination. Understanding is a necessary step on the way to forgiveness. [Yoda mode off]
Right. But to explain otherwise: Understanding does not mean forgiveness, but if you does not make a pure Eye for Eye one has to speak with each other and with luck, both sides will understand reasonably the attitude of the other. On the other hand: The Russian, french, netherlands etc. attidtude seems to me understandable, but not the genocide in Cambodia
BlackSea4ever
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 18:23
What about Stalin losing millions of people who weren't nazi collaborators? One can't ever understand hitlers or stalins...
Brat St. Sol
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 18:23
This (from German Field Marshal Erich von Manstein's mouth):
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/05/20/jamalas-1944-song-for-nazi-tatars/
St. Sol
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 19:08
If you believe for a second that free and independent Tatar Crimea could ever exist, you are hopelessly naive. Recall why the French and British armies were fighting with Russia for Crimea in 1850's. Crimea would have been a British colony today if not for Russian blood. Also ask the natives of other former British colonies how free and independent their life was under British crown (oopsie, they were indiscriminately killed). Tatars would have suffered the same fate, but apparently history's lessons are soon forgotten, and the need for a better master never dies in some people.
St. Sol
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 19:40
Unfortunately, wishes of the natives (self-rule, etc.) are irrelevant when big-boys geopolitics is at stake. It is true that most colonial empires crumbled, but the control of most strategically important places was never given back to natives (Gibraltar, Panama, Gulf oil, etc.) Crimea is one such place that, if abandoned, would undermine security of all Russia, hence it will never be abandoned, Putin or not.
St. Sol
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 20:49
Excuse me? Are you trying to assign collective responsibility to Russia and its people for all wrongs done to Crimean Tatars? Then I don't understand why you are so upset about Stalin's deportations as a collective punishment for documented Tatars' collaboration with Nazis. You can't have it both ways without appearing to be a hypocrite.
Jadis
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 20:05
Oh well, Russia is just a colonialist state like any other is or has been : England, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Turkey, Japan, China, and so many others. No fundamental difference, except that Russian colonies are not overseas, but at its borders. They all committed atrocities whenever there was a possibility to do so.
St. Sol
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 20:20
Colonialist states exploited the foreign lands, grabbed the resources, and got their way with the natives, often leaving a desert behind. Russia built schools and hospitals in its "colonies", established local administrations, preserved native languages, codified native alphabets, advanced local culture, etc. There seems to be a difference between this and what other imperialist states did, even though it might be hard to grasp for many westerners.
St. Sol
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 20:57
You seem to be very young, my friend, because huge lapses in your logic are self-evident. And I have no idea what they teach in Russian schools nowadays due to my advanced age. Why was Latin script chosen in 1926 for all Turks if they already had common Arabic script and language? It is because most central Asian nations didn't have their own script. It is you who seem to be the victim of modern indoctrination, and it shows in your posts.
St. Sol
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 21:22
So, you are saying Turks are different from Arabs and didn't want to use their script? How did they dare to use the script of their foreign occupiers for centuries then? (pun intended). Was it not imposed on them against their will?
Also, Kurds don't consider themselves to be Turks: can they have their own state now?
St. Sol
Gio, 07/03/2019 - 01:04
While on the topic: you say good things at one time but at the other time seem to advocate Greater Turkistan and "liberation" of all Turkic people from "occupation." How deep into history are you ready to go to cure the wrongdoings of the past? Is Turkey ready to return Orthodox Constantinople to Byzantium or at least to Russia as its last remaining Orthodox Christian heir, also known as the Third Rome? When?
Constantinople will be free, as some people in Russia say already.
Natur Provence
Gio, 07/03/2019 - 09:01
May be that the Nazis had a similar reason by forcing french man (Alsace) and Luxembourgers ( both considered by Nazis as "Germans" against their will) into the Wehrmacht (army).
In the east countrys as Hungary or the Ukraine was the service in the german army to my knowledge not forced but the result of own political convictions.
Natur Provence
Gio, 07/03/2019 - 08:59
I don't believe the expression is correct. Volksdeutsche were in the east, like in Czech or Russia
Treugol'ny
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 21:18
I thought this was a lyricstranslate site and not some kind of political forum. After living in a few countries, I notice, that the history can be changed and perverted. It's always represents those who are in power and it's always serves as a tool of oppression.
Vladimir4757
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 21:37
This has gone on a train wreck. I don't want to put my foot into here, but here I go. The USSR has been quite imperialistic and in a way colonialistic. But their policies were built around assimilation and discrimination. For a Marxist/Leninist/Stalinist "Socialist" state to exist properly there had to be damages to be dealt with, and Russia is poor with agriculture without Ukraine as a bread-basket state, and the Caspian for fishing and oil. When you look at what the Soviets did as they went through Europe it is clear they were "cleaning" the ethnic groups for their own benefit. Take the Caspian Sea, from the massive agricultural pushes, over usage of pesticides and neglect to the region, the USSR destroyed the ecosystem. This has had a massive impact on the general area and the local peoples. I don't want to talk about the Caucauses as that is just revolting, and that was Russia, not the USSR. Crimea was a power grab by Russia, with little regards to the native people, and it was only for the Russian military. Crimea is virtually worthless to Russia if the naval port wasn't there. Others have brought up other, things, that the Soviets/Russians have done to native peoples. I'll let you believe what you believe because you believe what you believe. I just want to make one thing clear from what history says, not opinions, not bias, not forcing my perspective on dead dictators, what the facts say: Russia didn't help anyone in the atrocities they've committed over the years and have only done so in an attempt to expand their reach and spread the ideals of communism throughout, as-well-as securing resources crucial for their military, NOT the people, and neglected those who they didn't see as important to their end goal if they couldn't assimilate them into their industries or farms.
Vladimir4757
Mer, 06/03/2019 - 21:56
That is the issue at hand. Carl Sagan's "A Man in his Arrogance" speech rings true to this (and more). No person should be punished for what their country does. The country's affairs are supposed to be at the mercy of the denizens, not the denizens at the mercy of the country's affairs. It is ass-backwards if you ask me, and is disgusting to let corruption reign like it has. This world has been sliding backward and I cannot understand how people are not losing their minds. But the problem falls back to the people, just like in information security, the greatest risk to an organization is the people who work there. In this, the people are the greatest threat to a nation. You sway 'em one way, throw bias into their media, and feed them lies, and it just festers hatred in them. Nothing good follows when people are angry and filled with hate. And dictators play to the whims of people's pains, promising them "fixes" that are nothing more than just miracles, hopes, and dreams. And they use this to their advantage, manipulating their people because they have their own bull to follow. It isn't about the people in the end, it is about what the Government wants and needs. Some nations are better than others when it comes down to this, others are obvious that is their intents. But human nature is human nature I guess ;p
BlackSea4ever
Gio, 07/03/2019 - 13:09
Need to add my 2 cents. The biggest problem with the notion that "natives" want their lands and culture, is that it is the road to nowhere. What are you promising to St. Sol but world war? And what will these little countries do after that? Go back to fiefdoms? Then back to clans? As usually, governments, existing and wannabe, push buttons of division and turn people into a herd drivelling nonsense, then fighting, but never for themselves. There is no freedom in division because resources aren't evenly spread and as such one will forever fight another. I'd like a DNA testing done to Palestinians and Jews - brothers. And Soviet immigrants to Israel - distantly or not at all related - can't figure out Palestinians point of view. In US, the "greatest" experiment in democracy, an idiot con artist is a president elected by Russians, and he is destroying humanity in people, destroying environment, ignoring global warming, and dividing people openly calling for civil war. What is needed, is one language so we understand each other, one mutual goal to clean the environment, one mutual goal to eliminate nuclear and bacteriological weapons. Then, we can and should indulge in preserving cultural heritages, languages, songs... Who the fuck will care about the alphabet in the midst having little food, water, air...
BlackSea4ever
Gio, 07/03/2019 - 18:16
I am afraid that reality is something we all struggle with. I am a republican who can't stand by most republicans. I am looking at democrats and shudder. There is a conversation to compensate blacks for the sin of slavery - of course, they are a voting block to use. Native Indians that were exterminated, moved off their lands, kept on reservations to this day, flooded with alchohol and compensated with a few gambling rights - not a large voting block... In Africa, US stood by allowing genicide, mass rape and murder, turning children into killers - so what happened to "never again"? Values are not taught in mother tongue - they are just taught! Look, buildings are not supposed to be designed to withstand airplanes crashing into them, people are not supposed to steal and kill (understandably, there will be a few crazies, but I mean people as a society), countries aren't supposed to seek nuclear and bacteriological weapons as there won't be winners in such contests.
So why is the world in turmoil? Because leaders, political and religious, exploit their positions for personal gain.
When I hear our moron, trump, saying "space force" I know that he is thinking he will take a trip while earth can go to hell and he will need space secret service... Just as when he said water boarding isn't torture (let alone insufficient method of torture), my only wish was and is that he experiences it on himself when answering to the thousands of lies he constantly tells us. Yet, he has 46% approval among his base - people who he is taxing, whose air and water he is poisoning, whose healthcare he is cutting off, whose jobs he is eliminating, whose future he is gambling! What is their main concern? Those pesky Mexicans and other brown people coming to our borders!!! So, reared itself the ugly racist bigot and, wow, surprise to those Jews on his side - there is a rise in the antisemitism - shocker, my girlfriend thought she can hate Obamas and feel superior - she forgot what they called her in Russia?! Her son, he says, they, the politicians are all the same - no point getting involved. But what will be the life for his 1-year old, what future awaits the young? So we are observing in real time a reality show that isn't entertaining - we ALL need to talk and move people towards togetherness or we are doomed.
By now, it should be clear environment is a priority one. That means conceding cultural differences, for now, and concentrating on survival.
Sorry for the rant. I agree it's a friendly conversation and much needed one.
St. Sol
Gio, 07/03/2019 - 19:10
You are surely kidding, right? You can't be THAT blind to reality: Soviet state was betrayed from within, Yugoslavia was dismembered by NATO forces, Syria, Lybia, Iraq, etc. were all helped to break up by friendly democratic bombings. If you still can't figure out who is behind all this, nothing will help you to lose your blinders, I am afraid.
Natur Provence
Gio, 07/03/2019 - 19:14
@ ingirumimusnocte: This would not be the worst idea: small states are more peaceful
Natur Provence
Gio, 07/03/2019 - 21:31
@ BlackSea4ever: Bravo, especially for mentioning the US-aspect which was missing until now. But you can go further- throughout the whole world and the space, as you mentioned -to incriminate the US for killing people only for money and power.
But: (in order to be clear) "quote: So why is the world in turmoil? Because leaders, political and religious, exploit their positions for personal gain.unquote" This is rather simplistic. What means gain ? Money? Power? If you are looking at some of the greatest murderers like Hitler, Stalin or the Cambodian communist regime: It was something different, like fanatisme, schizophrenia.
BlackSea4ever
Gio, 07/03/2019 - 23:31
I see insatiable greed. Putin and his castles. Trump and his towers. Netanyahu and his real estate. There are benign, more or less, Canadians. There are a few "we don't give a damn" tiny European countries. Fanatism and schizophrenia seem to be the traits for African leaders. Venezuela is a disaster man created. It seems to me that all around the world we lost best ideals and any desire to help one another. If I am well off at this moment, then fuck you. If I am not well off the next moment, I am entitled to everything I didn't want you to have a minute ago. That is not to say there is no hope - young people seem to finally look into the climate change. Puerto Rico was devastated and trump threw paper towels at people - I am hoping he will eat his cake soon. Clearly, the point we have world wide resources isn't accurate. There are people starving and living in the streets in USA - lots of veterans which is heart breaking, Russia lost what, 10% of population (to death not immigration)? How much money do trumps and Putins need - do they think they can buy forgiveness? Why do they insist on arms race? Why do we not yell louder against it?
Natur Provence
Ven, 08/03/2019 - 07:30
Greed, so old as mankind,, one of the death sins!
BlackSea4ever
Sab, 26/03/2022 - 14:19
More lies and propaganda? How unexpected…
sandring
Sab, 26/03/2022 - 14:38
Эта ложь^^ в Википедии написана. Это и так все знают, как этот Хантер деньги сосал из украинского газа, а на что он их тратил известно вплоть до имен этих самых девиц. А украинские деньги он мотал вместе с сынком Нэнси Пилоси. Это я к тому, что не только Россия Украину поимела хорошо.
Что касается роддома, над которым ты слезы льешь, так там роддома уже три года как не было. Там был штаб Азова. А роддом перевели в другое здание, где моя подружка и работала и до и после перехода. Потом ушла в детскую больницу. Можешь называть это lies and propaganda, но применительно роддома я это знаю точно. Так что, где lies, суди сама.
А Соля забанили??? How unexpected... :) ;)
BlackSea4ever
Sab, 26/03/2022 - 14:39
I am not hunter biden’s follower, but joe Biden loves his wife and family (and I know this for a fact), as such, you had no reason to string both names together in this context. And judging from the yachts, planes, and palaces (with the questionable entertainment options), one would expect the burden is on you to clearly state just who exactly is the worst drainer of any people. Is this unprovoked war still considered the liberation? I think not.
BlackSea4ever
Sab, 26/03/2022 - 15:00
I missed your remark about Sol. You and Julia have made it your disdain clear. It is not my fault when Sol or anyone else is banned. Our opinions differ but we are able to discuss things whereas you are trying to fill the shoes of the real provocateur. Please note I never say things I do not mean, nor do I lurk and hide behind the “goodness” you declare you possess and imply I do not. Philippe and I were wrong in a single thing - we expected outrage and support from every person in our old circle. What I learned is that it’s difficult to expect spirit from cowards and truth from liars. Living in the place where my words do not threaten a hefty prison sentence, I can understand if not comprehend silence from some, but damn it, I won’t accept any further attempt by you to malign me.
And Azov is the reason to level Mariupol? And storm Odessa? And wage this war across Ukraine? And threaten nukes and bio weapons? I think everyone at your level of intelligence has all the answers. And the belief in Russian propaganda is a personal choice.
sandring
Sab, 26/03/2022 - 15:07
At my high level of intelligence I sieve everything I hear. You do not. There are lies on both sides. Politicians are all like this. But you and Jadis are on another planet and have no idea what's going on. I've stated my position about this war many times. Sorry if you didn't hear.
Julia_Arkhitektorova
Sab, 26/03/2022 - 17:07
Ди, основной принцип любой подрывной деятельности - не оставлять следов. Интересы слишком многих пересекаются сейчас на территории Украины. Текущее положение дел слишком удобно, чтобы сделать Россию козлом отпущения и нанести сокрушительный удар по ее государственности и имиджу в глазах мирового сообщества. Но против исторической правды нет приема. И тот, кто упадет на этот камень, разобьется, а на кого он упадет, того раздавит.
sandring
Sab, 26/03/2022 - 15:43
What I learned is that it’s difficult to expect spirit from cowards and truth from liars..... I won’t accept any further attempt by you to malign me.
Who is maligning who?
We have different ways, dear, to fight for the truth. Every day I fill out online surveys which circulate daily where I clearly state that I'm against this war and mind you I do it from my desktop. As for you? you're and Jadis fight your own battle calling out those who have a different opinion and leading them to a ban. St.Sol, where are you? Engulfed by the emporium????
Treugol'ny
Ven, 08/03/2019 - 11:55
Didn't they have tried to make everybody equal in USSR? I was equal to my neighbour, but he dressed better and he owned a car, though I worked twice as much. So, like old fart Carl Marx said: " the proletariat has nothing to loose but chains", or something like that. One day I've decided, to hell with chains, I'm moving out. The end result is not bad, after all: I'm happy, content, financially sound. If I have to start all over again, I would do exactly the same, but much earlier. It's nice to have great ideals and feeling good about it, especially on full tummy. I bet you, that people who live on the street and those who don't have money to pay for their power bills, so they can get warm, don't think about the climate change. We had in Australia a guy, who was an expert on climate change. He was a big shot, and was getting paid hips. One day he announce, that one very expensive coastal area where people build their homes, will disappear under the water very soon. The owners were scared to death. the prices on properties went a bit down. So, what do you think our climate authority did? He bought a LAND RIGHT THERE AND BUILD HIMSELF A HOUSE!
We have authorities upon authorities, commissions upon commissions and so many of them, that soon we won't have any money to pay them. Billions of dollars were spent and without the result. If you really want to do some work with your finger, than see what the Chief scientist of Australia said, when a journalist ask him: " what would happen, if we stop every car, every coal power station in Australia.?" By what margin we will change the air temperature?
He answer was: None at all. Believe it or not, but it's the truth. That's what he said.
deaband 
zanzara
Gio, 20/06/2019 - 21:32
Au traducteur Rene Fabri:
Воля - en ukrainien, mais aussi en russe - signifie pareillement la liberté et a été utilisé dans ce sens. Vous devez avoir une très mauvaise volonté de renvoyer ce mot à la expression fasciste ("Wille zur Macht"?) dans la note de bas n°8). Après tout, le verset suivant, par " la vie en chaîne", fait directement référence à la liberté.
Rene Fabri, I know that you are not a Frenchman. You are Russian. And lying to the notes to the translation. Why?
Рене Фабри, я знаю, что вы не француз, а русский. Зачем вы врете?