gece on 2014-05-05
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martine.arnesen.ulvesveen Lyrics powered by www.musixmatch.com
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Theqila
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 09:04
Well, thanks for the discussion and your time, Razq. It was nice going through the lyrics once again and correcting everything in the end. :)
Before having anyone change the lyrics, let us note that 'bir şey' is separate and there better be a comma before 'mir'im' and perhaps an exclamation mark.
>>Kimse kimseye bi' şey öğretemez, mîr'im!
Not sure if it's 'mîr' or 'mir'. According to how it's pronounced and considering it's an old word—'î' will probably more make sense.
Razq
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 11:09
I also thank you for your responses and time.
I wrote the comment above more than one year ago, when I was not an editor. I had provided two translations for this song one in Persian (my own work) and another one in English (copy of the YT subtitle). Yesterday, I received two messages that I should review my translations and that's what I did.
I fixed the lyrics myself now. According to the new lyrics guidelines, I try to use punctuation marks sparingly, so I didn't use an exclamation mark.
Razq
Fri, 10/11/2023 - 19:29
Hi [@Aver]
Considering your edit request, please can we discuss the lyrics here?
1) Are you sure it's "miyim" instead of "mirim"?
2) I hear "her" before "önüne". What about you?
3) Could you please explain why "Alaturka'ya" should be capitalized and contain the apostrophe, considering https://sozluk.gov.tr/?/alaturka
4) Isn't it better that both "kimse"s be in the same line, especially considering the subtitle of the official music video?
Thanks!
Theqila
Fri, 10/11/2023 - 19:39
Hello,
1) Are you sure it's "miyim" instead of "mirim"?
>I hear 'miyim' crystal clearly. Meaning something along the lines of, she wants to teach people something, but people won't just accept her knowledge, so she is a bit rebellious. In addition, 'mirim' means nothing in Turkish.
2) I hear "her" before "önüne". What about you?
>You are correct on this. I must have missed it. It's 'her önüne'
3) Could you please expalin why "Alaturka'ya" should be capitalized and contain the apostrophe, considering https://sozluk.gov.tr/?/alaturka
>According to TDK, both are acceptable and in a context like this, writing it in upper-case will be the best choice as far as aesthetic purposes are concerned. It does not change the meaning and does no harm by any means. The same thing could also go for this line: 'Kimi batıdan şikâyetçi', instead it is better to say: 'Kimi Batıdan şikâyetçi', 'Batı' means 'West', but she is referring to the Western culture, hence, in upper-case would be more aesthetic.
4) Isn't it better that both "kimse"s be in the same line, especially considering the subtitle of the official music video?
>Bu ne mânâsız didişme kimse,
Kimseye bir şey öğretemez miyim?
I take it you're referring to this part. Then let us do it like:
>Bu ne mânâsız didişme?
Kimse-kimseye bir şey öğretemez miyim?
We can choose to omit the first 'kimse', too, as it is merely an echo of the word next to it—'kimseye'. And in that case, it's best to add a question mark to 'Bu ne mânâsız didişme' as well.
Hope that about covers it!
Razq
Fri, 10/11/2023 - 19:52
1) Well, I don't agree. mirim is not meaningless. It means "my mir" and mir means "Bey, emîr" according to TDK: https://sozluk.gov.tr/?/mir
I also hear it mirim. It also makes rhyme with "prim". I raised the issue at https://lyricstranslate.com/en/comment/1101655#1101655 asking for third opinions by native speakers of Turkish.
2) I will fix it.
3) Okay, not that important.
4) I don't agree. The first kimse is the subject of the sentence, whereas the second kimse is the indirect object and in the dative case. It makes no sense to join them with a hyphen.
Theqila
Fri, 10/11/2023 - 20:04
It's Persian and obsolete according to that source and I have never heard of this word—possibly of Ottoman origin as well, chances are it belonges to the previous century. Ask others if you want, and change it accordingly if you believe 'mir' makes sense. I personally cannot imagine the lore of this song, so, maybe they wanted to use a Persian word or an old-fashioned one.
4) I don't agree. The first kimse is the subject of the sentence, whereas the second kimse is the indirect object and in the dative case. It makes no sense to join them with a hyphen.
>If it is 'mirim' you can say 'kimse kimseye' and a comma after 'öğretemez' and it's most likely 'mîr'im' or 'mir'im'. Lose the question mark also as it is not a question in that case.
Worthy note: I've asked a historian friend of mine. Says this word meant 'Master, Sire, Commander, Sir' in Ottoman times but now is obsolete (in Turkey). And that Barış Manço (Father of Doğukan Manço—the singer—) used this word quite a lot in his songs, and that is why they included this word. There's lore for you too. :P
So it is worth adding it to the annotations later on.
Yelda Şahin
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 04:42
Appreciate your efforts to find the right words Razq, thank you for caring so much for Turkish lyrics.
Yelda Şahin
Fri, 10/11/2023 - 21:46
She says "Kimse kimseye bir şey öğretemez, mirim!" very clearly and (1) it is very relevant to the context as she reacts the fact that everybody tries to "teach" or to impose their own truths on others. (2) She doesn't use question intonation (3) mîrim rhymes with prim (especially considering we pronounce it as pirim even though we spell it with pr).
Some old words like mirim are used half-jokingly by many people, including or especially by some young people.
On the other hand "Bu ne mânâsız didişme kimse" has no meaning, kimse definitely belongs to the next line.
Hyphening is not necessary to spell Kimse kimseye
Theqila
Fri, 10/11/2023 - 21:50
After a quick research, I have found out that Barış Manço also used this word occasionally in his songs, so it only makes sense that Doğukan Manço uses it as well in a song. That about resolves the issue, I guess. 👍 Weird that most online dictionaries do not include that word, though.
Yelda Şahin
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 05:11
Dün 10 Kasım'dı. Bu vesileyle 1915'te gösterdiği başarılardan dolayı miralay (alay komutanı - albay) rütbesine yükseltilen Anafartalar Kumandanı 'Miralay' Mustafa Kemal'i anmış olalım.
Theqila
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 12:57
Regarding 'mana', TDK suggests it should. As for 'Zâlim', I do not think the difference is great with or without, but 'âlim' and 'zâlim' rhyme in the song, so for clarity I thought it would be a nice touch. :)
https://www.milliyet.com.tr/egitim/mana-nasil-yazilir-tdkya-gore-mana-ke....
amateur
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 13:00
Regarding 'mana', TDK suggests it should.
No it doesn't, as can be seen on sozluk.gov.tr.
Theqila
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 13:03
Anıl, the accent solely exists to distinguish 2 different 'A' sounds. Although Turks do not use it quite as often these days, it does not mean it should not be used. You read that word, 'mânâ', and tell me you are not spelling 'â'. :)
The same would go for 'hala', 'hâlâ'. 'Hâlâ' means 'still', whereas 'hala' means 'aunt'. 'Mana' and 'mâna' have the exact same difference in spelling as 'hala/hâlâ'. Logically, it will include the accent. I do not know if TDK has changed it recently, not following the changes of grammar rules up to date. But last time I checked, the accent made sense. Only the first 'â' according to most recent sources, but there is still an accent.
amateur
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 13:21
The same would go for 'hala', 'hâlâ'. 'Hâlâ' means 'still', whereas 'hala' means 'aunt'. 'Mana' and 'mânâ' have the exact same difference in spelling as 'hala/hâlâ'. Logically, it will include the accent.
The difference is, 'hala' with two short 'a' sounds exists as a word, while 'mana' doesn't. Since it can't be confused with another word, it's written without the accent:
Yazılışları bir, anlamları ve söylenişleri ayrı olan kelimeleri ayırt etmek için okunuşları uzun olan ünlülerin üzerine konur
You can read more about it here. Or you can watch the video I made about it here.
I do not know if TDK has changed it recently
The rule last changed in 2005, and never since.
Theqila
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 13:23
You can do whatever you want with it, I suppose, since the accent has been removed years ago. 'Hâlâ' can be ' hala', too, no one would notice. :) But the correct spelling I know is written: 《mâna》.
No need to watch a video I guess. Both 'mâna' and 'mana' are acceptable as far as modern Turkish rules go. As I said, both will never affect the meaning. And you're the editor here. It's up to you. :)
amateur
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 13:31
Had you actually bothered to watch the video, you'd have found out that,
1) The accent has never been removed, and all this 'TDK removed it' talk is one giant misunderstanding,
2) The circumflex has quite particular and specific rules about where it should be used, and just because most people don't bother to type it because of laziness or indifference it doesn't mean both versions are acceptable.
Anyway, it's your loss. Have a nice day.
Theqila
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 13:39
It's not a loss or anything. Just because of something you said in a video, and I do not know who you are and how reliable your knowledge on this is, and I have watched that video, it will not erase what I have seen in books for years. I've bumped into the spelling: 'mâna' many times before, and here, as a member of the site, while mainly correcting the format and enhancing clarity, I added the accent to some of the words, too, while posting my suggestion. As I said before and will never say again, if you think it is right—go for it and make the change. You need not argue with me here if you are so sure of your knowledge. You have a nice day, too. :)
Razq
Sat, 11/11/2023 - 14:07
To finish this discussion, I went ahead and made the following changes in orthography:
Alaturka'ya --> alaturkaya
batıdan --> Batı'dan
hakim --> hâkim
mânâsız --> manasız
zâlim --> zalim
Please let me know if anything has been missed. My only criterion is the spelling of the words at the TDK Sözlük.
halcyonxo Yelda Şahin
Sun, 12/11/2023 - 06:14
Evet, şapka tartışması buna güzel bir örnek olmuş. Önemsiz şeylerden büyük ayrışmalar çıkarmakta biz Türklerin üstüne yoktur.
Please fix the following according to the Turkish subtitle of the official video:
* Kimse kimseye birşey öğretemezmiydi --> Kimse kimseye birşey öğretemez mirim