About Song Titles' Romanizations and Placement

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<a href="/fr/translator/%E2%B0%8D%E2%B0%93%E2%B0%80%E2%B0%94%E2%B0%91%E2%B0%8E%E2%B0%91%E2%B0%82" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1229450">ⰍⰓⰀⰔⰑⰎⰑⰂ <div class="editor_icon" title="Éditeur" ></div></a>
Inscrit·e le : 19.12.2014
Pending moderation

In the rules section it's written that when uploading the lyrics of a song whose title is not using the Latin script (for example Cyrillic, Japanese or Korean), it should be written the following way: Romanized title (Original title).

I've seen this pretty often, but I somehow refuse to accept it. First of all, I see it as disregard towards the original language by not putting it first, and that's why I can't find a logical reason for this, maybe I'm missing something evident?

I think it would be better to use either only the original title for songs in languages who don't have an official transliteration system [OTS for short] (e.g. Bulgarian, which I'll be talking about below), and the pattern Original title (Transliterated title) for those languages who do have one (e.g. Mandarin's pinyin or Japanese's romaji (Hepburn romanization in particular, which is the most widely used one).

Okay, we can use the official systems of those languages, but what about Bulgarian? (I'm taking my native language because I'm not aware of others, so I it would be great to mention them if you know any).

Bulgarian, unlike Japanese's romaji or Mandarin's pinyin, doesn't have an official transliteration system, which means that if I were to upload, let's say, the song "Пепеляшка" and follow the rules, I can choose to write the title either as "Pepelyashka" (this is how most people would transliterate it), "Pepeljashka/Pepeljaška" or even "Pepeliashka/Pepeliaška". I suppose I can choose whichever I want, but the lack of standard is not helpful at all. Of course, I would be perfectly understood by Bulgarians in this case, but since there are people who don't know the language, they may mispronounce it: e.g. if I leave it as "Pepeljashka", the French would pronounce it as [pepelʒaʃka] instead of the correct [pepeˈ ljaʃkɐ], which sounds absurd.
Concerning this title, Pepelyashka is the best way to transliterate it.

But let's take the song "Моя първа любов", which I would transliterate as "Moya părva lyubov". Possible alternatives are: y being replaced by i or j; ă being replaced by a, u, y.

Another example: "Планетата на децата", where ц ([t͡s] in IPA, similar to the ts in the English bats, although not exactly the same) is the problematic letter. The majority of people would write it as "Planetata na decata", even though the song here is uploaded as "Planetata na detsata". Not to mention the ways the title can be pronounced either like "decata" and "detsata" in other languages.

As you can see for youself, this can be a problematic theme which can sometimes lead to basic misunderstandings which I haven't mentioned here in details, so I think it would be best to leave the original title only, at least for Bulgarian songs, and wait for someone's transliteration or either make a request for one or make one yourself.

Apart from Bulgarian, in my experience, whenever I upload Japanese songs, I put the original title first and then the romaji in brackets: 微かなカオリ (Kasuka na Kaori), which is not as the rules suggest it to be [Kasuka na Kaori (微かなカオリ)].

In conclusion to all I've written:
– For Bulgarian titles (and other languages who don't have an OTS; if you know any, please mention them) I suggest to write the original title only;
– For languages who do have an OTS, I suggest writing the original title first and then the romanization according to the OTS of the given language).

So, what do you think about that?

Invité·e
Invité·e

I personally agree with you. I think that all songs should be written in their language using their language system, it's unfair to romanise everything. If you want to do it, there's the possibility of uploading a transliteration, so I can't understand why the rules say to transliterate the title and put the original title between brackets. Wouldn't be easier this way?

PS: I need to say this, I love your pic ahah

Éditeur | Language lover
<a href="/fr/translator/amateur" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1069494">amateur <div class="editor_icon" title="Editor" ></div></a>
Inscrit·e le : 12.10.2010

Bulgarian does have an official (albeit inadequate) romanization system, described at the rightmost column here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Bulgarian#Comparison_table

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<a href="/fr/translator/%E2%B0%8D%E2%B0%93%E2%B0%80%E2%B0%94%E2%B0%91%E2%B0%8E%E2%B0%91%E2%B0%82" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1229450">ⰍⰓⰀⰔⰑⰎⰑⰂ <div class="editor_icon" title="Éditeur" ></div></a>
Inscrit·e le : 19.12.2014

I suppose you're right, my bad for not knowing it. However, as you said, it's rather inadequate: the a-ă (а – ъ) distinction is very important, because according to the official transliteration, both the words пътя (the road, the way [as a direct object]) and патя (to suffer, to have a hard time of something) will be both transliterated as patya which is not recommended, so it's best to use pătya and patya respectively instead, so this is a good example for possible ambiguities.

Another reason I find transliteration in the original title for Bulgarian songs useless in this case is the fact that you transliterate all songs published in it (and thank you for that, by the way), so I think you can get what I mean.

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<a href="/fr/translator/%E2%B0%8D%E2%B0%93%E2%B0%80%E2%B0%94%E2%B0%91%E2%B0%8E%E2%B0%91%E2%B0%82" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1229450">ⰍⰓⰀⰔⰑⰎⰑⰂ <div class="editor_icon" title="Éditeur" ></div></a>
Inscrit·e le : 19.12.2014

I just realized my last statement was a bit contradictory, so I should add that if it's better after all for a transliteration to be present in the original title, I suggest it to be put in brackets right after the original one, instead of the current method.

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<a href="/fr/translator/ivan-u7n" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1297482">Ivan U7n </a>
Inscrit·e le : 27.06.2016

The same problem does exist with Russian. While there is the national standard there are so many alternatives, that even my own last name is written differently in my international passport and on my bank cards. This Wikipedia article shows 11 official alternatives! And more variants are used by natives privately.
I’d prefer to have the original song name the title field and the transliterated one from "Transliteration" translation if any exists. This way there may be any number of alternatives to satisfy everyone.
It'll be even better to have a site-wide automatic transliteration as a fallback. But that is a subject for another discussion.

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<a href="/fr/translator/cherrycrush" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1144880">CherryCrush </a>
Inscrit·e le : 07.12.2012

I don't really agree for two things - there is official transliteration from Bulgarian (it's the one used in documents and by licensed translators when they translate names), and there is a point in the romanisation of the titles.

For the Bulgarian specifically, I've spoken with so many people (and I translate lots of songs/requests) that don't know the language, don't have the Bulgarian Cyrillic alphabet on their computer, or can't even read in it. For them, making the titles only in the original alphabet would mean lots of duplicate entries (if you've ever added a request in an alphabet you have no idea how to read, let alone pronounce or write in, you know the struggle), and they would not be able to find the song at all, if the YouTube video doesn't have the original name in it that they can copy. I actually see no difference behind the idea of the transliteration of Greek, Arabic, Bulgarian, Japanese or whichever language you choose, since it's there to help whoever doesn't speak the language at least find the entry.

The reason behind putting the transliteration first I see not as a way to show the original is less important, but to make the search of it easier, when you open the artist, for example. It makes the navigation of the indexing easier too (I mean, who would expect to find a Y (й) right after I (и), if not familiar with the alphabet's specifics?) Also, partly the problem can be resolved if you open an artist page and take a look at what's there. I've never seen this rule being fully implemented to be in that way, as long as both of them are present in some way (it does annoy me when under an artist they are 50/50 though, but maybe it's just me.) Or else, imagine you have an artist with a 100 songs and you have no idea which letter is after which - it would take you forever to find the entry, if you use the indexing and not the search.

As for specifically the Bulgarian system, it may sound like a lot better idea to transliterate Japanese, but the fact is that all the languages that use the Slavic alphabet have a lot more letters than English (for comparison, Bulgarian has 30, English has 26, some of them like x, q and w are not even used, so it makes them even less), so there is not an ideal situation, but it's impossible to have an exact equivalent of every letter. I, personally, try to use the "official version" of it whenever I have to, and I find letters like ă or ŭ confusing (the first thing, I have no keyboard that has these), since one should read specifically how this should be pronounced and checked, if not familiar with the language. Also, other languages use different letters to pronounce a similar sound to the ъ (for example, the Albanian uses ë), but nobody seems to make a problem about it, they just read/hear how to pronounce it and learn it. Different people use different ways that they find more convenient, so it would be extremely hard a unified system to be implemented, at least in my opinion.

But thanks for sharing that, I definitely agree that there are as many transliterations as there are people doing them, and I've seen this problem before too, however I feel like to remove it completely is still not the right decision.

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<a href="/fr/translator/sciera" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1077079">Sciera </a>
Inscrit·e le : 16.02.2011

I've already suggested more than once to the admins that this order be switched but they haven't changed the policy so far.

Regarding finding songs easier, I do think we should include the transliterated title, but the search feature of basically any browser should be enough to find any song, no matter by which alphabetic order the songs are sorted.

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<a href="/fr/translator/alexander-laskavtsev" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1248685">Oleksandr_ </a>
Inscrit·e le : 06.06.2015

...ukrainian and russian have 33 letters each one, 32 letters belorussian.
As for the problem mentioned in the topic... well, database search works better with latin, so I believe that the reason for that rule is rather technical. Anyway, me personally not against that (despite the fact that all my native languages use the cyrillic script).

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Inscrit·e le : 19.12.2014

@CherryCrush Yes, I agree with your point of view that it's easier for people who don't speak the target language to look up in the artist's page and sort the titles in alphabet order by their romanization. While reading your thoughts on this, a vision of possible ideal situation came to my mind – adding an extra column to the system so that in every artist's page appears a column titled "Transliteration" (of the title + a transliteration (or more of them) of the entire song/poem underneath, instead of being published under the "Translations" section), so that one could be able to list in alphabet order both the song's original and romanized versions (I've been also thinking about adding one for year (either of album or song, if album not available), album name (and its transliteration below as well) instead of these little hyperlinks (if that's how they're called, I'm not sure) below the artist's picture. I'm not familiar whether this is possible or not, but I find it quite satisfying and helpful at the same time.

Just in case, here's a picture of how I imagine it:
http://prikachi.com/images/665/8913665Z.png

Modérateur à la retraite of the Balkans :)
<a href="/fr/translator/cherrycrush" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1144880">CherryCrush </a>
Inscrit·e le : 07.12.2012

I love that idea and it may resolve what of problems with the transliteration (since it can be added by editors/moderators, for example, so they can add different variations), but I have no idea how hard it would be to be implemented, or whether it's possible. I'll just send it to the admins now, so they can take a look and say their opinion, thanks for the suggestion!

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<a href="/fr/translator/ivan-u7n" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1297482">Ivan U7n </a>
Inscrit·e le : 27.06.2016

First of all I’d like to point that all modern operating system have at least basic support for Cyrillic script or more importantly theirs fonts have it. At least displaying something in Cyrillic ought to be no problem at all, reading it for those unfamiliar to it is another beast. As for the typing, I don’t have on my keyboard symbols for «Russian quotes», “English quotes”, or even „Bulgarian quotes“, but I write them. ;)
For me the main problem of transliteration Russian on this site is searching songs. Unfortunately there are Russian songs here that are missing original name in title or the transliterated one. And as the transliteration variants are plenty it’s almost impossible to guess what exact variant was used. I even come across not transliterations per se, but transcriptions, i.e. title was written in Latin script as it is heard in Russian not as it is written. To summarize: I need several searches to find the song and at last full visual search of the author’s page to understand that song isn’t published yet. And the more songs are authored the harder is the last task.
There is also the problem of substituting familiar looking characters from both scripts with each other to consider. But it’s another problem altogether, too.
As for the using unfamiliar scripts, I’ve done some searches in Georgian script, though I don’t know how to read it. How? Simple! – Use the [strike]force[/strike] Google, Luke! ;) Current web search engines are rather powerful in this regard. Give them in Latin script some rubbish somewhat similar to what you want and they’ll correct you and even use their power to convert it back to the original script and search with it. Of course that’s not a olden bullet for all but at least a solution.

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<a href="/fr/translator/ivan-u7n" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1297482">Ivan U7n </a>
Inscrit·e le : 27.06.2016

Oh, yes, the separation of the title and its transliteration is an excellent idea that may resolve many problems. It is something similar to what I proposed, but better with the year and the album fields to sort upon. However as I’m a programmer a little I feel it won’t be quick if ever. :(

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<a href="/fr/translator/sciera" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1077079">Sciera </a>
Inscrit·e le : 16.02.2011

@nicholas.ovaloff: That would be most easily realized by making separate fields for original title ans transliteration.
I also suggested such a while ago.

@Иван Устюжанин: That's basically why the original title should always be included - if you find songs missing it then please report it.

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<a href="/fr/translator/ivan-u7n" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1297482">Ivan U7n </a>
Inscrit·e le : 27.06.2016

Sciera, I’ll do that in future, as I currently don’t remember what songs I was searching then.

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<a href="/fr/translator/cherrycrush" class="userpopupinfo" rel="user1144880">CherryCrush </a>
Inscrit·e le : 07.12.2012

Well, I guessed the reason why it is as it is at the moment, I don't argue that there are as many ways of writing it as there are people who do transliterations.

For me, there is not a wrong or right way, since there are so many systems that are present, and nobody can actually "prove" that one is better than the others. Don't know what "automatic transliteration" would mean though, as again, there will be a discussion why it's Ya and not Ja for example, and someone will not agree, and someone will say some other system is better, so we'll go in an endless circle, unless the Nicholas' idea or something similar is implemented.